Dexter - Season 4

[Decophile]

Power-Saw to the People!!!!!

[crissy11]

Yeah, you are right and I agree with what you had to say. I guess I always want Dexter to be kind of a bio of the real serial killers like Bundy, Gacy, BTK etc. I've had a keen interest (DH calls it a weird obsession) with serial killers my whole life - more the psychology of why they kill. Is it nature vs. nuture? Do they have different brain wave patterns? What is it about them that makes them do what they do? What are their similarities and differences?

In my years and years of researching this (as an amateur only!) it seems that one of the things they do have in common is that they are all narcissists, and they do not have any real feelings for others - outside of what others can offer them. They are great actors, they are even better "blenders" and usually manage to get away with their crimes because they are not terribly memorable. Dexter touches on this. I guess that's why I get a bit annoyed when he starts to exhibit behaviour that is not, from what I've read over all the years, typical "serial killer behaviour". I found the whole scene in the last episode of season 3 a bit hard to take when he was pondering the birth of his child. Most real life serial killers would not have that kind of attachment to their unborn child - and would have very little attachment to the child after it was born. They could of course fake it all in order to blend - that is what they do.

But I have to remember that the Showtime producers aren't doing a bio on serial killers and keep an open mind. I will stick to A&E for the real serial killer profiles and watch Dexter for what it is - still the best thing on television by far!!

Originally Posted by Decophile

It's safe to assume that Dexter fans aren't in it for sap/moosh. Same could be said about House fans. But neither is Dex a cold-blooded caricature. He thinks he is, but he's not. I don't minimize the importance of the code. How are morals, or religious teachings, anything other than a "code," designed ultimately to serve pragmatic concerns of maintaining stability and enhancing survival, co-existence, and advancement? Just because he doesn't infuse his code with emotions doesn't make it less of a form of morality. Also, when Harry discovered the stockpile of animal bones, long before the code was developed and tought to him, Dex told Harry that he hadn't graduated to killing people because he didn't think his parents would like it. I agree that if there were no bad people, Dex would kill good people, but not randomly or indiscriminately. He'd probably still do some analysis of relative impact, relative worth, and select his victims accordingly. It's all part of the ritual. If Dex killed just to rid the world of bad people (Dex is frequently mislabled in the press as a "vigilante" which he so is not), this would not be the great, complex, transporting show that it is. That he kills only because he loves it and needs it is what takes this show to a whole different level. One of my favorite scenes is Dex's first kill, the nurse who was slowly poisoning Harry. I laughed my ass off watching his awkward, bumbling, tripping, inexpert struggle to subdue her.

[MissTiss]

Crissy. I'm always telling people that serial killers fascinate me and that I get "that look". I took a psych class once that did a bit on criminal psychology and I was completed entralled. Not send letters and marry one entralled, but super interested in what makes them tick.
Plus it's not uncommon for me to yell at my friends for getting to near a stranger and reminding them "he could be a serial killer". LOL.


I wonder how much Dexter is like the real thing, because honestly as screwed up and seperate he really is, I can see his feelings.

[Decophile]

Originally Posted by MissTiss

Crissy. I'm always telling people that serial killers fascinate me and that I get "that look". I took a psych class once that did a bit on criminal psychology and I was completed entralled. Not send letters and marry one entralled, but super interested in what makes them tick. Plus it's not uncommon for me to yell at my friends for getting to near a stranger and reminding them "he could be a serial killer". LOL. I wonder how much Dexter is like the real thing, because honestly as screwed up and seperate he really is, I can see his feelings.

[crissy11]

Wow - yes, exactly like me. I watch all the bios on Dahmer, Bundy, BTK, not sure if you heard of Paul Bernardo who was a Canadian serial killer, etc. Plus I have read tons of books, articles, etc. on criminal psychology and behaviour, FBI criminal profiling books, and on and on. I did a course once on criminal psychology and wrote a paper on it that was very well regarded. I kind of missed my calling I think.

My bookcase is full of books on serial killers and the like - I often wonder what people think of that when they walk into my house.

From the years of reading I've done, Dexter doesn't really fit the psychological profile of a serial killer IMHO, which does tend to bother me. With Rita in the first series he did - when she was just a cover. Yeah he liked her, but there wasn't a real attachment there, and that for me was more believable. And the baby attachment doesn't ring true either. Nor the intense need to protect kids. They all make for interesting fiction, but not real serial killer stuff.

Originally Posted by MissTiss

Crissy. I'm always telling people that serial killers fascinate me and that I get "that look". I took a psych class once that did a bit on criminal psychology and I was completed entralled. Not send letters and marry one entralled, but super interested in what makes them tick. Plus it's not uncommon for me to yell at my friends for getting to near a stranger and reminding them "he could be a serial killer". LOL. I wonder how much Dexter is like the real thing, because honestly as screwed up and seperate he really is, I can see his feelings.

[Decophile]

Now I've read no books on serial killers and don't know anything about them or their usual MO or profile, and even to me Dexter doesn't seam to fit the serial killer mold. Then again, I never even understood how witnessing his mother's brutal murder and sitting in a pool of her blood for days should mean that he needs to kill. How does that follow? And yet the story tells us that not only does it follow, but that his older brother responded in exactly the same way, as though it's an absolute cause and effect. Is that true of all serial killers, that they kill because of some unusual stimulus or trauma? Are serial killers made or born? I always assumed it was the latter. But Dexter was made, not born a serial killer. So perhaps that's why he doesn't exhibit all the other standard depravities. Although I too preferred him when he was celibately hanging out with Rita. And while I loved the marriage proposal scene, I'm not crazy about Dex the husband and dad, though I do like his protectiveness and comfort with children. That one seams to make sense.

[crissy11]

Well it's funny - but there is no real answer to that question. I thought when I started delving into that question 20+ years ago that I'd find the answer, but one has never been uncovered. I think it is safe to say that there is absolutely no proof that it's nature or that anyone is born that way. There has been the occasional finding of brain wave patterns being different and some parts of the brain acting different in serial killers vs. normal people, but it's very random.

However, severe abuse or serious trauma as a child has been known to have happened to many serial killers - but again, many people have suffered serious abuse as a child and done quite well - so while this is common in many serial killers obviously being exposed to this as a child doesn't mean you will become a serial killer or even a criminal.

But interestingly, they do seem to share 3 common traits - 2 of which were written into the Dexter show - (1) abuse or trauma as a child, (2) animal abuse and (3) arson or playing with fire.

Oh - and while Dexter being protective with kids is nice and heartwarming for the show, I've read nothing to indicate that serial killers feel any more warmth or attachment for kids - even theirs - than they do for the rest of the population. The only time I saw one that showed any compassion at all for his family was BTK. But he killed very randomly over 20 years - including children that were the same age as his own kids, and in very horrible ways. I saw him on TV testifying at his trial, and it was amazing to hear him speak about the horrific way he killed people - including children - in a tone that you and I would use to describe the weather. However, when he went to jail he wanted to make sure his family was taken care of financially. That was the closest thing to compassion I'd seen a serial killer ever show for his real family.

Originally Posted by Decophile

Now I've read no books on serial killers and don't know anything about them or their usual MO or profile, and even to me Dexter doesn't seam to fit the serial killer mold. Then again, I never even understood how witnessing his mother's brutal murder and sitting in a pool of her blood for days should mean that he needs to kill. How does that follow? And yet the story tells us that not only does it follow, but that his older brother responded in exactly the same way, as though it's an absolute cause and effect. Is that true of all serial killers, that they kill because of some unusual stimulus or trauma? Are serial killers made or born? I always assumed it was the latter. But Dexter was made, not born a serial killer. So perhaps that's why he doesn't exhibit all the other standard depravities. Although I too preferred him when he was celibately hanging out with Rita. And while I loved the marriage proposal scene, I'm not crazy about Dex the husband and dad, though I do like his protectiveness and comfort with children. That one seams to make sense.

[lovelygarments]

A continuation of the list:

"Let's speak some simple truths about Dexter."

1. Dexter saves money for all taxpayers.

2. The court system is less crowded.

3. Prisons are less crowded because serial killers are being eliminated w/o the fuss and muss of trials.

4. Dexter is hot.

5. Dexter could carve the turkey at my house on Thanksgiving. He is good with knives. :)

6. Quote from Season 1, Episode 3 or 4: "Bullies are felons in the making." I love that quote - this quote is not verbatim, but it was something like that. Dexter's dad was telling him that after Dexter was bullying a fellow soccer player.

[lovelygarments]

Originally Posted by Decophile

I get what you're saying. I think we've been sucked in by Dexter and pull for him because we see his latent humanity. He's not a one-dimensional monster like he thinks he is. Seeing him stumble and bumble along and go through the motions in civilization, and try so hard to please people, is what makes him so sympathetic and likeable. My BF (who is now equally addicted to this show and loves Dex) while playing devil's advocate, asked how I could side with Dex when ultimately he loves killing people. I said because he's a good person. This is also why I so loved his marriage proposal. Not to be a complete douchebag, but I'm not married and am not sentimental about marriage. But tears ran down my eyes watching Dex struggling to say something to Rita and the kids to reach out to them emotionally, and I was blown away by the brilliance of how he plagiarized the lines from the psycho chick, and yet somehow still made it his own, made it believeable, injected himself into it. It doesn't matter how deeply and consistently he feels connected to Rita or anyone else. It matters that he wants to be and tries to power through his "disability." That he doesn't like his inner void and wants to fill it humanizes him. Despite his regular claims of not having any feelings, he does have feelings, for Deb, the kids, Rita, Angel, etc. And has negative ones as well, against pedophiles and those who would harm those close to him. The question is how far will his development go and what impact will it have on him. We don't want to see him transformed into a well adjusted family man, but we also want to see him fulfilled. Just not in a conventional way. Hence

Brilliant analysis, Deco....I have to go back and rewatch those episodes. I did not realize that he stole the lines from Lila.......

Also, I agree that the Balenciaga RT pieces would be perfect for him....and a little ink side case.....

Everything that you say on this thread, Deco, I'm just going to say, "Ditto!"

[Decophile]

Originally Posted by lovelygarments

Brilliant analysis, Deco....I have to go back and rewatch those episodes. I did not realize that he stole the lines from Lila....... Also, I agree that the Balenciaga RT pieces would be perfect for him....and a little ink side case..... Everything that you say on this thread, Deco, I'm just going to say, "Ditto!"

Lovely Kay, the lines were stolen from some psychotic woman who imagined she was engaged to some guy she was stalking and killed him in his house. She was completely delusional about "their love" even though she killed him.

[NoSnowHere]

Tomorrow night!!

[yeliab]

Love Dexter since season 1!!

Talking about psychotics' inability to form emotional relationships - Dexter has an emotional one with his adopted sister... actually chose her over his real brother to kill.

BTW - I posted this question in another thread - I was wondering ... is there a difference between a socialpath vs. psychopath? or are they one of the same??

[admat97]

Look at what my mad Googling skills came up with!! According to this lovely piece of copy/paste, Dexter would be a psychopath. Dexter is my favorite psycho!

"The difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is somewhat blurred, at least according to the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The DSM-IV lists both definitions together under the heading of Antisocial Personalities because they share some common traits. Many use the terms sociopathy, psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder (APD) interchangeably. Professionals not only dispute whether there is a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath, but among those that believe there is a difference, there is dispute over what those differences are.

Even those professionals that identify a difference note that the traits of the psychopath and sociopath are largely similar. Both psychopaths and sociopaths have a complete disregard for the feelings and rights of others. This often surfaces by age 15 and may be accompanied by cruelty to animals. These traits are distinct and repetitive, creating a pattern of misbehavior that goes beyond normal adolescent mischief.

Both the psychopath and sociopath fail to feel remorse or guilt. They appear to lack a conscience and are completely self-serving. They routinely disregard rules, social mores and laws, unmindful of putting themselves or others at risk.

Of the more distinguishing traits, some argue the sociopath to be less organized in his or her demeanor, nervous and easily agitated – someone likely living on the fringes of society, without solid or consistent economic support. A sociopath is more likely to spontaneously act out in inappropriate ways without thinking through the consequences.

Conversely, some argue that the psychopath tends to be extremely organized, secretive and manipulative. The outer personality is often charismatic and charming, hiding the real person beneath. Though psychopaths do not feel for others, they can mimic behaviors that make them appear normal. Upon meeting, one would have more of a tendency to trust a psychopath than a sociopath.

Because of the organized personality of the psychopath, he or she might have a tendency to be better educated than the average sociopath, who probably lacks the attentive skills to excel in school. While psychopaths can fly under the radar of society, many maintaining families and steady work, a sociopath more often lacks the skills and drive for mimicking normal behavior, making “seemingly healthy” relationships and a stable home less likely. From a criminal standpoint, a sociopath’s crimes are typically disorganized and spontaneous, while the psychopath’s crimes are well planned out. For this reason, psychopaths are harder to catch than sociopaths, as the sociopath is more apt to leave ample evidence in his or her explosions of violence.

Hence, while similar psychological traits might fall under the antisocial personality heading, from a social and criminalist point of view, the differences between a psychopath and a sociopath may be significant. According to experts, persons with a non-criminal history can also display lesser or varying degrees of either personality type."

[crissy11]

This article gives a very good explanation of the Sociopath vs. the Psychopath. . . . . it's not too long and really quite interesting.

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art..._a.html?cat=72


And this one actually references Dexter and has a picture of him with the article:

http://www.associatedcontent.com/art...ath.html?cat=4

[crissy11]

VERY NICELY DONE!!

Originally Posted by admat97

Look at what my mad Googling skills came up with!! According to this lovely piece of copy/paste, Dexter would be a psychopath. Dexter is my favorite psycho! "The difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is somewhat blurred, at least according to the fourth edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). The DSM-IV lists both definitions together under the heading of Antisocial Personalities because they share some common traits. Many use the terms sociopathy, psychopathy and antisocial personality disorder (APD) interchangeably. Professionals not only dispute whether there is a difference between a sociopath and a psychopath, but among those that believe there is a difference, there is dispute over what those differences are. Even those professionals that identify a difference note that the traits of the psychopath and sociopath are largely similar. Both psychopaths and sociopaths have a complete disregard for the feelings and rights of others. This often surfaces by age 15 and may be accompanied by cruelty to animals. These traits are distinct and repetitive, creating a pattern of misbehavior that goes beyond normal adolescent mischief. Both the psychopath and sociopath fail to feel remorse or guilt. They appear to lack a conscience and are completely self-serving. They routinely disregard rules, social mores and laws, unmindful of putting themselves or others at risk. Of the more distinguishing traits, some argue the sociopath to be less organized in his or her demeanor, nervous and easily agitated – someone likely living on the fringes of society, without solid or consistent economic support. A sociopath is more likely to spontaneously act out in inappropriate ways without thinking through the consequences. Conversely, some argue that the psychopath tends to be extremely organized, secretive and manipulative. The outer personality is often charismatic and charming, hiding the real person beneath. Though psychopaths do not feel for others, they can mimic behaviors that make them appear normal. Upon meeting, one would have more of a tendency to trust a psychopath than a sociopath. Because of the organized personality of the psychopath, he or she might have a tendency to be better educated than the average sociopath, who probably lacks the attentive skills to excel in school. While psychopaths can fly under the radar of society, many maintaining families and steady work, a sociopath more often lacks the skills and drive for mimicking normal behavior, making “seemingly healthy” relationships and a stable home less likely. From a criminal standpoint, a sociopath’s crimes are typically disorganized and spontaneous, while the psychopath’s crimes are well planned out. For this reason, psychopaths are harder to catch than sociopaths, as the sociopath is more apt to leave ample evidence in his or her explosions of violence. Hence, while similar psychological traits might fall under the antisocial personality heading, from a social and criminalist point of view, the differences between a psychopath and a sociopath may be significant. According to experts, persons with a non-criminal history can also display lesser or varying degrees of either personality type."