Not keen on having kids Support thread #2

[boomie]

Originally Posted by leothelnss

I think this is the third time around for this thread. They always seem to get closed pretty soon after things blow up with people who disagree with our opinions. Maybe we should have our own subforum! That way we could have several debate threads and support threads, but separate from each other... We could call it "those with furry babies and not-so-subtle parents" or "no-creation: the other option" Whaddya think?

There are a lot of pet people here...it's an idea :)

[leothelnss]

^ And several people who have joined the forum simply to post their situation and opinion on this subject... With a larger outlet, maybe even more folks would chime in.

[stemidy]

Originally Posted by NagaJolokia

To counteract the so-called and falsely named selfishness of this position, you can be very giving and generous in other ways: charities, your friends, minions, plants, a stranger, whatever family you already have. It does not have to be children! I, for one, have donated a good sum to the environmental and animal causes and I give to my SO whom I love having in my life.

Completely agree.

Yet, even with knowing that, I still feel helpless sometimes because no matter how good I am and how much I love the people/pets around me, the fact that I don't want children seems to nullify all of those qualities. I say I don't want children and some people look at me like my face is melting -- "There must be something wrong with you since you don't want to experience the greatest love you'll ever feel."

And that offends the hell out of me. Now, I don't doubt for one second that parents love their children like they've never loved anyone before, share a special bond, and all those things. But to imply that THEY know how to measure love is presumptous. And to say it in that tone is very offensive to me. Why? I love my sister too much for words to explain. If I lost her, I would die out of sadness. Just imagining not being able to talk to her, see her, hug her, laugh and cry with her, destroys my heart. I can't explain this bond, and she feels the same way about me. When I explain this to some people with kids, the typical response is: "bah, you don't know real love until you have children". Ugh!

I understand when someone mentions the greatest love they feel as an experience for them, and I totally get how people generally say that day-to-day, after all I've had people tell me that since I was a little girl. Not offended. But when they try to demonstrate their "superior" status and knowledge of life and love by diminishing me and my sentiments, I get upset. If I try to argue back, they then get pissed and offended because I am unreasonably "trying to put the love they feel for their children on the same level as the love I feel for my sister." I never wanted to compare, only add perspective. And if I dare to mention my dogs, all hell breaks lose.

Am I being that unreasonable? All I'm asking is for an understanding that not all people love equally and there is no way that you can measure love universally to determine exactly how I should feel towards my dogs/family, etc. I feel bad for parents who don't love their kids as much as some assume they do. They feel trapped and to escape, they end up hurting their children and themselves. If we all made half the assumptions we make, the world could be twice as better.

Sorry for rambling, the topic of selfishness and what some people imply, really boils my blood.

[Jesskaz]

^^^ Wow. I hear you. How could your love for your sister ever be considered less than the love someone feels for their kid? Love is love. I don't believe in the concept of degrees or conditional love.

I get upset about this too b/c there is an insinuation that a couple isn't 'complete' without kids, or that somehow their love for eachother isn't as real or deep as love they would have for a child.

I think it's baloney.

[Jesskaz]

Originally Posted by edithw

Hello ladies I posted on the firts thread, only a couple of times, and I came back here because I meant to reply to baglover529's post, but then the thread got closed. I want to let you baglover529 know that what you wrote is the way I feel. I 80% don't wan't children, but there is that 20%, so I stopped taking the pill about 2 years ago. Yet, the thought of me becoming pregnant somehow doesn't make me happy. I know it's weird, but it makes sense to me. I don't want kids, but I feel that I have to give it a slight chance. I feel that whichever decision I make, it won't make me fully happy. But mostly, I am too selfish and love my life the way it is.

Just my .02 but I'd say maybe you should think about being off BC a bit more. It's scary to hear you say the thought of becoming pregnant doesn't make you happy. It's a big decision and you should be sure.

[GnomeNisse]

Originally Posted by Jesskaz

I get upset about this too b/c there is an insinuation that a couple isn't 'complete' without kids, or that somehow their love for eachother isn't as real or deep as love they would have for a child. I think it's baloney.

You could always point out that the greatest love stories in history, fact and fiction, rarely involve children.

[GnomeNisse]

(just don't bring up Nabokov's Lolita)

[Jesskaz]

[Necromancer]

Originally Posted by Jesskaz

^^^ Wow. I hear you. How could your love for your sister ever be considered less than the love someone feels for their kid? Love is love. I don't believe in the concept of degrees or conditional love. I get upset about this too b/c there is an insinuation that a couple isn't 'complete' without kids, or that somehow their love for eachother isn't as real or deep as love they would have for a child. I think it's baloney.

Ditto for same sex couples. To some people, their love for each other isn't real either.

Originally Posted by NagaJolokia

To counteract the so-called and falsely named selfishness of this position, you can be very giving and generous in other ways: charities, your friends, minions, plants, a stranger, whatever family you already have.

As for selfishness, I've gotten that comment over the years too. I'm childless by choice and I knew from an early age I didn't want children. I have explained this to people, and inevitably there will be someone who says I'm selfish. I've often wondered, how can I be selfish about something that doesn't exist? It just doesn't interest me, just like it doesn't interest me to smoke cigarettes or to run a marathon. It's not a difficult concept to grasp, is it?

[SeriouslyChic]

stemidy, I totally understand your frustration. I just encountered that most recently with my BF's co-workers, but the worst was my old neighbors. Both times it has been the husbands, the men, who have told me that I don't know what responsibility is because I don't have a family.

Seriously - "You don't know what hard work is, you don't know responsibility, you can't appreciate a family." All because I don't have children.

Also - do any of you guys get this? - people tend to assume I'm about 5 years younger than I am (I'm 27 now) because I don't have kids. It always goes "Do you have kids? No? What are you, like, 22? 23?"

But I think that's the worst part. The assumption that I don't "get" life, responsibility, love, happiness, fear... because I don't have a child.

The following is a quote from the movie "Waking Life." I have a little bit of it in my sig. It makes sense to me, especially in this sitch. Of couse we know love, responsibility, fear,.... good grief.

Quote:

Creation seems to come out of imperfection. It seems to come out of a striving and a frustration, and I think this is where language came from. I mean, it came from our desire to transcend our isolation and have some sort of connection with one another. And it had to be easy when it was just simple survival; like, 'water' or 'sabre-tooth tiger right behind you'-- we came up with a sound for that. But what I think is really interesting is how we use the same symbols to communicate the abstract, intangible things that we're experiencing. Like, what is frustration? Or what is anger, or love? When I say 'love', the sound comes out of my mouth and hits the other person's ear, travels through this byzantine conduit in their brain, through their memories of love--or lack of love--and they register what I am saying and they say yes, they understand. But how do I know they understand? Because words are inert. They're just symbols. They're dead. And so much of our experience is intangible. So much of what we perceive can not be expressed; it's unspeakable. And yet, when we communicate with one another, and we feel that we have connected and we think we're understood, I think we have a feeling of almost spiritual communion. And I think that feeling might be transceived, but I think it's what we live for.

Sorry for the epic post. Hope someone can appreciate the quote.

[Cindi]

I wonder if the brains of people that love children and the ones that don't care for them are wired differently? Seriously. I see an animal in distress and I am in tears. Some people take a look and say it's just an animal. Maybe my brain is wired a certain way?? I have known I didn't want kids since I was 16. At 18 I asked my doctor to tie my tubes but she said I was too young and would probably change my mind. I am 42 and still have no interest in kids. None. Seeing a baby doesn't make me want to hold and cuddle him. A cat?? Yep. Maybe it is as simple as basic wiring? Maybe that's why all the moms can't understand how I feel. They have opposite wiring.

[Necromancer]

^^ I'm a little older than you Cindi, but I am pretty much "wired" the same way. Show me a kitten and I squee. Show me a child and I usually feign interest...or I look for the nearest exit.

[queennadine]

^^^ I'm also wired the same way! Animals in distress make me bawl like a baby (no pun intended, haha).

I also get the "Oh, you're young...you'll change your mind" bit. What's interesting is that most of the people who say this would be perfectly fine with me HAVING kids at my age.

So I'm old enough to have kids but not old enough to decide I don't want them? (I'm 23 and DH is 24, btw)

[leothelnss]

^ It's puppies for me... Not that I don't like kittens, they're cute too. But babies? Eh... Not so much. Another thing... The only type of animal I have no interest in are the ones in the primate family. Monkeys, apes, etc... I really don't like them very much, in fact, they kinda creep me out. If I saw one, I'd keep my distance. Same way with babies.

[Necromancer]

^^ Oh, I'm useless when it comes to puppies too. I'm an equal opportunity squee-er.