Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice.

chicbabacool · Dec 13th, 2007, 05:11 PM

Let me give you a little background:

My family is originally from eastern PA, and my entire extended family still lives there. I lived in NYC during my childhood but when I was 9 we moved to Northwest Arkansas. I was too young for it to be much of a culture shock and I identify myself as southern since I did grow up there.

I now go to college in Michigan and I'm a senior this year. I'm graduating and moving out of Michigan... I hate it here for many reasons but the #1 reason is the people. Maybe it's because I'm used to warm Arkansan attitudes, but people in Michigan are so reserved! Everyone I've mentioned this too says "oh yeah, that's the Midwestern Reserve." Like they know exactly what I'm talking about.

It's this sense that I can never really get to know someone. Like, I have tons of friends but everyone has this shell up. No one really seems to care even, and that bothers me. I remember walking around campus freshman year and being friendly to everyone and having people look at me weird. I even had a friend tell me that "in Michigan, we don't talk to strangers." Ha!

When I call people they don't return my calls. If I call a business and leave a message they don't call me back. This has happened with a jeweler, a well-known bank (multiple times), an EMPLOYER, two doctors... the list goes on. If I call again and get a hold of the person they don't even mention the fact that I left a message asking them to call me back.

This happens with my friends too. I will call them and sometimes they just don't call me back. Then, when they call a few days later they won't even mention that I called them! They do this to each other too so I know it's not a personal thing. There's one girl who NEVER calls anyone back ever and everyone is just like "yeah, she doesn't return calls." Like it's no big deal and that's just how she is. I think it's so rude!

Is it a cultural thing? Because honestly, I have never in my life had to interact with people who don't return calls. It's extremely frustrating when you're trying to schedule appointments or find out test results, need to talk to your broker, get jewelry fixed etc. I was even HIRED at Macy's and the head of the department I was hired to work in called and left me a message to come in, and then when I called her back 5 mins later (I was in class) she didn't pick up so I left her a message. She never returned my call and I ended up leaving her 4 more messages over two weeks. She never returned ANY OF THEM. So I called the HR manager who hired me and she said "Oh yeah, so-and-so has been in I wonder why she isn't returning your calls since you're hired. I'll call you back." And she never did, so I figured F*ck it, I didn't want to work somewhere that operated like that.

I never ever had this problem in Arkansas. When I called people, they called me back. End of story.

It's this general pattern of self-centeredness and coldness that I have seen people in Michigan exhibit over and over again! People in Michigan don't see this at all and consider themselves to be "extremely warm" but I haven't gotten this at all.

Can anyone else relate? Sure I'm moving in 5 months, never to return, but it's been so disheartening to live somewhere for 3 and half years and have no close female relationships to show for it. Maybe it's me, or maybe it's circumstantial. Or maybe I expect too much from relationships. My friends in Arkansas, who I have sadly grown apart from, and I were close like sisters! My friends here, it's like fun to hang out with them but there's no depth. It could be just who my friends are as people, but it's happened too many times with all very different people.

Maybe I'm too friendly and expect too much out of people. I read a book about French women, and the author claims that French women are solitary with a few close life-long friends so I'm trying to remind myself of that. My closest friend lives in Portland OR (she's from Arkansas) and she's amazing, but I never get to see her! We have such a great relationship too.

What's your take on this? I'm very smart, well-dressed, and friendly. I'm not a pariah or anything, just wanted to make that clear.

Allisonfaye · Dec 13th, 2007, 05:24 PM

Hmmm...I am from Ohio and I live in Chicago. I would guess we shouldn't be much different from Michigan people but I certainly wouldn't behave like the people that you describe. I think it is just rude. I am interested to hear what other people think.

merika · Dec 13th, 2007, 05:33 PM

I live in the Northeast, and it's a fact that the ALL the Southerners I've met are really friendly compared with the people around these parts. Returning calls - well there are some people who do and some who don't, if it's a persona call. No-one finds a particular need to return calls out of sheer politeness, or send thank-you notes etc. Businesses: some return calls and some don't, and if they don't and it's an important call - then they just lost a customer.

College life is in itself very different from high school especially if you're from a small community or a small school. Everyone is on their own personal track, as well as being really busy and not being available all the time.

vanojr9 · Dec 13th, 2007, 05:45 PM

I'm from IL and am currently still here (have been most of my life) and I don't think we're reserved in the way you describe. At least we certainly return calls! And I talk to strangers all the time. In fact, back home, it's considered rude not to wave to people when you drive past them or not to stop and chat with the people you pass on a walk, stranger or not. I work for a college and deal with a lot of people from different states and countries, and they actually poke fun at me and my IL compatriots for being too nice and polite! I can't speak to Michigan though, especially since my school considers Michigan its biggest rival - haha, we don't have very polite things to say about Michiganers either!

chicbabacool · Dec 13th, 2007, 05:55 PM

I am talking about Michigan specifically. I have a couple close friends who are from Chicago and they are COMPLETELY different from people who were raised in Lower Michigan. People from the UP are very different from people in downstate Michigan.

So yes, I am specifically referring to people who live in the lower peninsula of Michigan, not Midwesterners in general. I have seen the behavior I described over and over again, time after time. So I do know that it isn't just me because I see people doing this stuff to each other!

IME, people from Chicago are very different from people in downstate Michigan, as are people from Illinois. It might have something to do with how poorly Michigan's economy is going.

razorbackbelle0 · Dec 13th, 2007, 05:57 PM

I'm from Arkansas, but my SO is from Michigan, and when I went there, I noticed the difference, too. It's just a cultural thing. Things are very different up North. I, too, am smart, well-dressed and friendly, but getting the icicles on people up there to thaw was beyond my realm of experience, though I was raised and taught to handle any social situation. I feel for you! Come back to Arkansas!

boxermom · Dec 13th, 2007, 06:25 PM

Ah, it hurts my heart to hear people in Michigan are acting this way. I was born in Lansing, went to MSU, dh was born in Ann Arbor and still has family in that area. My first job out of college was for the state of MI.

May I ask which school in MI you attend? If it's one of the big ones, the student body will be from everywhere, many out-of-state. college towns have a very different vibe from a regular town. Maybe they are just so self-absorbed with their studies it comes off as unfriendly.

I envy you coming from a place where people return phone calls. We've found that to be a problem wherever we live--north or south. I think as an area grows, some common courtesy goes out the window.

katheryn · Dec 13th, 2007, 06:31 PM

I am originally from Michigan but have lived in the south for a while. People are a lot nicer down here. Everyone, male and female, will hold a door for the person behind them. People are friendly and polite to waiters, employees, cashiers, etc. However, I will say that I found the people in Michigan nicer and more polite than the people in New England. I think I could manage in Michigan, but definitely not in New England. I'd agree that people in Michigan are more reserved, but very friendly once you get to know them. My mom grew up there, and she is as sweet, polite, and friendly as can be. Maybe a farmer's daughter thing? Regional differences are fascinating, I think.

Vegas Long Legs · Dec 13th, 2007, 06:36 PM

I lived most of my life in the midwest. Not calling somone back is just rude. JMO - I have found midwesterns (me included) might not be as welcoming as southerners at first. But they have sense of loyality & honesty I wish I could find in Vegas.

chicbabacool · Dec 13th, 2007, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boxermom

May I ask which school in MI you attend? If it's one of the big ones, the student body will be from everywhere, many out-of-state.

I go to MSU. I also read somewhere on MSU's website that 90% of the student body is from Michigan. I have definitely found that to be true as I have only met a few people who are from out of state.

I have lived here full time for 3 years and have had a chance to get to know lots of people from outside of the college scene and they act the same way. That's why I think it's definitely a cultural thing. I know that a lot of my friends are busy, as am I, but I get so upset about the complete lack of politeness.

Quote:

Originally Posted by razorbackbelle0

I feel for you! Come back to Arkansas!

I know! I wish I could, but I want to have a career in fashion advertising so I need to live in a big city. Plus I just prefer the big city lifestyle. But I LOVE going back to Arkansas. My dad has a big ranch in the country and I love boating at Beaver Lake... now I'm getting homesick

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by katheryn

However, I will say that I found the people in Michigan nicer and more polite than the people in New England.

I haven't spent any time in New England since I was 5 so I have no experience with people there. I have spent a lot of time in Eastern PA and New York and I find people there to be a lot more real. If they don't like you, you'll know if. And if they like you, you'll know it too! People in the south I have found to be genuinely nice. But in Michigan, again this is my experience, they will be polite to your face. I have found people in Michigan to be very shallow people, whereas at least in New York you know where you stand.

I do want to reiterate that this is just my experience. There could be an entire population of genuinely friendly and polite Michiganders that I haven't interacted with. And it could also be the fact that I grew up in the south that I think this behavior is strange. It really IS fascinating how different people behave in different areas of the country. But frustrating at the same time!

razorbackbelle0 · Dec 13th, 2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chicbabacool

I know! I wish I could, but I want to have a career in fashion advertising so I need to live in a big city. Plus I just prefer the big city lifestyle. But I LOVE going back to Arkansas. My dad has a big ranch in the country and I love boating at Beaver Lake... now I'm getting homesick

.

Awwww! I live about 9 miles from Beaver Lake. I love it.

I wanted a big career in fashion advertising too, then I fell into my graphic design niche with a great company here and I'm happy as a clam! Though I have to admit if I got offered a fabulous FA job I'd move wherever.

My parents have a big ranch in the country too, you just can't beat those Summer early morning horseback rides!

If you ever get homesick and come back, drop me a line!

IntlSet · Dec 13th, 2007, 07:00 PM

I'm from California and I find the opposite to be true. Californians aren't especially friendly folks compared to midwesterners whom I find very warm, friendly, outgoing... I guess it's all relative, isn't it? I imagine southerners are the same way, or a more intense version! I have NEVER heard of "midwestern reserve" before... I had always heard of the midwest being a very friendly place.

I'm not familiar with Michigan, but maybe if you were in a midwestern big-city like Chicago, you'd feel differently. I'm sorry you don't enjoy Michigan! Come out and give the Windy City a try!

holly di · Dec 13th, 2007, 08:53 PM

I live in ARKANSAS!!!! I live in Sheridan, about 20 min south of the Rock.

When dh and I travel, we notice the difference in the people, too. I guess I am so used to the people and the culture here that it would be hard for me to live any where else.

holly di · Dec 13th, 2007, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by razorbackbelle0

Awwww! I live about 9 miles from Beaver Lake. I love it.

I wanted a big career in fashion advertising too, then I fell into my graphic design niche with a great company here and I'm happy as a clam! Though I have to admit if I got offered a fabulous FA job I'd move wherever.

My parents have a big ranch in the country too, you just can't beat those Summer early morning horseback rides!

If you ever get homesick and come back, drop me a line!

Razorbackbelle, my parents are looking to buy a house on Beaver Lake!!! We so need to have a shopping trip together at the Promenade!!

BTW, what do you think of the new coach?!?!

Speedy · Dec 13th, 2007, 09:59 PM

Oh, boy honey, I SO know what you mean!

When I got pregnant with my son, my then-DH and I decided to leave the Bay Area of California (Specifically, San Jose) to raise him in the farmlands and cucumber plots of Michigan, my ex's father's hometown. You'da thought I was from another PLANET they way they treated me! My ex was okay to them, his father was born and raised there, so it gave my ex some kind of automatic roots to the place.

I only made one friend the whole time (over a year) I was there the first time, and only because she and I had our sons on the same day. Then DH and I left for a three year military commitment. When we got back to the States and specifically Michigan, all heck broke loose... his mother divirced his father, SHE was suddenly pariah too (she was also born and raised in California) and my ex decided to shun her... like the rest of the town.

I'd already decided I was leaving him when we got back to the States, and one day, a few months after we'd arrived, I left him. I took my son and went to stay with my friend I'd shared a room with at the hospital when we had our sons, she helped me find a small place until I could afford to go home. I was lucky she stood by me, the rest of the town either ignored me, or did little things to make me feel very unwanted. Back then the whole town was maybe 800 people, and almost half were related to my ex in one way or another! News travelled fast, and I'd barely called my parents to tell them he and were split up when the "banishment" began. Checkers at stores would always close just as I got to the register, the pharmacy was always messing with me for my prescriptions (say they only had a few days worth, so I had to come back over and over to get more of my 'script) the guy who ran the laundry mat snubbed me everytime I came to the 'mat.... the list goes on. I DID however, make good with my ex-mother-in-law... we both wanted the same things by then, away from the men we married and to get the hell out of Michigan.

I remember one incident quite clearly... this was the first time we were there, before I had my son. My ex's uncle owned the local bowling alley and I got a job there as a cashier. Well, all the bowling biddies who felt I'd stolen one of their fine young men musta thought they knew EVERYTHING about Californians... I was wearing a pair of gold hoop earrings, and I lost one. Me being me, I just kept wearing the other one by it'self. The biddies just KNEW when someone only wore one earring, it meant they were lesbians. (Never mind I was 8 months pregnant and they knew my ex and his family!) Of course, when we came back after the stint overseas, I left him, re-affirming that I MUST be gay! (Can't wait to get back to Californication, eh Speedy?) My ex mother-in-law filled me in on what was said by the bowling biddies in the three years we were gone.

I was never so glad to be back in California after that. I vowed never to leave my own kind again.

Dec 13th, 2007, 05:24 PM	#2
Allisonfaye Member	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. Hmmm...I am from Ohio and I live in Chicago. I would guess we shouldn't be much different from Michigan people but I certainly wouldn't behave like the people that you describe. I think it is just rude. I am interested to hear what other people think. __________________ Ink City, tomato first, white first, violet first, black flat brass first, rouge vif city, white city.

Dec 13th, 2007, 05:33 PM	#3
merika Just me Location: In front of a computer	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. I live in the Northeast, and it's a fact that the ALL the Southerners I've met are really friendly compared with the people around these parts. Returning calls - well there are some people who do and some who don't, if it's a persona call. No-one finds a particular need to return calls out of sheer politeness, or send thank-you notes etc. Businesses: some return calls and some don't, and if they don't and it's an important call - then they just lost a customer. College life is in itself very different from high school especially if you're from a small community or a small school. Everyone is on their own personal track, as well as being really busy and not being available all the time. __________________ I will also gladly authenticate your chocolates for you.

Dec 13th, 2007, 05:45 PM	#4
vanojr9 Member	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. I'm from IL and am currently still here (have been most of my life) and I don't think we're reserved in the way you describe. At least we certainly return calls! And I talk to strangers all the time. In fact, back home, it's considered rude not to wave to people when you drive past them or not to stop and chat with the people you pass on a walk, stranger or not. I work for a college and deal with a lot of people from different states and countries, and they actually poke fun at me and my IL compatriots for being too nice and polite! I can't speak to Michigan though, especially since my school considers Michigan its biggest rival - haha, we don't have very polite things to say about Michiganers either! __________________

Dec 13th, 2007, 05:55 PM	#5
chicbabacool hippie dans français Location: MI	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. I am talking about Michigan specifically. I have a couple close friends who are from Chicago and they are COMPLETELY different from people who were raised in Lower Michigan. People from the UP are very different from people in downstate Michigan. So yes, I am specifically referring to people who live in the lower peninsula of Michigan, not Midwesterners in general. I have seen the behavior I described over and over again, time after time. So I do know that it isn't just me because I see people doing this stuff to each other! IME, people from Chicago are very different from people in downstate Michigan, as are people from Illinois. It might have something to do with how poorly Michigan's economy is going.

Dec 13th, 2007, 05:57 PM	#6
razorbackbelle0 Sofa King Banned Location: Raiding PBC's closet... shh!	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. I'm from Arkansas, but my SO is from Michigan, and when I went there, I noticed the difference, too. It's just a cultural thing. Things are very different up North. I, too, am smart, well-dressed and friendly, but getting the icicles on people up there to thaw was beyond my realm of experience, though I was raised and taught to handle any social situation. I feel for you! Come back to Arkansas!

Dec 13th, 2007, 05:11 PM	#1
chicbabacool hippie dans français Location: MI	Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. Let me give you a little background: My family is originally from eastern PA, and my entire extended family still lives there. I lived in NYC during my childhood but when I was 9 we moved to Northwest Arkansas. I was too young for it to be much of a culture shock and I identify myself as southern since I did grow up there. I now go to college in Michigan and I'm a senior this year. I'm graduating and moving out of Michigan... I hate it here for many reasons but the #1 reason is the people. Maybe it's because I'm used to warm Arkansan attitudes, but people in Michigan are so reserved! Everyone I've mentioned this too says "oh yeah, that's the Midwestern Reserve." Like they know exactly what I'm talking about. It's this sense that I can never really get to know someone. Like, I have tons of friends but everyone has this shell up. No one really seems to care even, and that bothers me. I remember walking around campus freshman year and being friendly to everyone and having people look at me weird. I even had a friend tell me that "in Michigan, we don't talk to strangers." Ha! When I call people they don't return my calls. If I call a business and leave a message they don't call me back. This has happened with a jeweler, a well-known bank (multiple times), an EMPLOYER, two doctors... the list goes on. If I call again and get a hold of the person they don't even mention the fact that I left a message asking them to call me back. This happens with my friends too. I will call them and sometimes they just don't call me back. Then, when they call a few days later they won't even mention that I called them! They do this to each other too so I know it's not a personal thing. There's one girl who NEVER calls anyone back ever and everyone is just like "yeah, she doesn't return calls." Like it's no big deal and that's just how she is. I think it's so rude! Is it a cultural thing? Because honestly, I have never in my life had to interact with people who don't return calls. It's extremely frustrating when you're trying to schedule appointments or find out test results, need to talk to your broker, get jewelry fixed etc. I was even HIRED at Macy's and the head of the department I was hired to work in called and left me a message to come in, and then when I called her back 5 mins later (I was in class) she didn't pick up so I left her a message. She never returned my call and I ended up leaving her 4 more messages over two weeks. She never returned ANY OF THEM. So I called the HR manager who hired me and she said "Oh yeah, so-and-so has been in I wonder why she isn't returning your calls since you're hired. I'll call you back." And she never did, so I figured Fck it, I didn't want to work somewhere that operated like that. I never ever had this problem in Arkansas. When I called people, they called me back. End of story. It's this general pattern of self-centeredness and coldness that I have seen people in Michigan exhibit over and over again! People in Michigan don't see this at all and consider themselves to be "extremely warm" but I haven't gotten this at all. Can anyone else relate? Sure I'm moving in 5 months, never to return, but it's been so disheartening to live somewhere for 3 and half years and have no close female relationships to show for it. Maybe it's me, or maybe it's circumstantial. Or maybe I expect too much from relationships. My friends in Arkansas, who I have sadly grown apart from, and I were close like sisters! My friends here, it's like fun to hang out with them but there's no depth. It could be just who my friends are as people, but it's happened too many times with all very different people. Maybe I'm too friendly and expect too much out of people. I read a book about French women, and the author claims that French women are solitary with a few close life-long friends so I'm trying to remind myself of that. My closest friend lives in Portland OR (she's from Arkansas) and she's amazing, but I never get to see her! We have such a great relationship too. What's your take on this? I'm very smart, well-dressed, and friendly. I'm not a pariah or anything, just wanted to make that clear. Last edited by chicbabacool; Dec 13th, 2007 at 05:18 PM.*

Dec 13th, 2007, 06:25 PM	#7
boxermom Member Location: North Carolina	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. Ah, it hurts my heart to hear people in Michigan are acting this way. I was born in Lansing, went to MSU, dh was born in Ann Arbor and still has family in that area. My first job out of college was for the state of MI. May I ask which school in MI you attend? If it's one of the big ones, the student body will be from everywhere, many out-of-state. college towns have a very different vibe from a regular town. Maybe they are just so self-absorbed with their studies it comes off as unfriendly. I envy you coming from a place where people return phone calls. We've found that to be a problem wherever we live--north or south. I think as an area grows, some common courtesy goes out the window.

Dec 13th, 2007, 06:31 PM	#8
katheryn Member	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. I am originally from Michigan but have lived in the south for a while. People are a lot nicer down here. Everyone, male and female, will hold a door for the person behind them. People are friendly and polite to waiters, employees, cashiers, etc. However, I will say that I found the people in Michigan nicer and more polite than the people in New England. I think I could manage in Michigan, but definitely not in New England. I'd agree that people in Michigan are more reserved, but very friendly once you get to know them. My mom grew up there, and she is as sweet, polite, and friendly as can be. Maybe a farmer's daughter thing? Regional differences are fascinating, I think. __________________

Dec 13th, 2007, 06:36 PM	#9
Vegas Long Legs Member Location: Las Vegas	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. I lived most of my life in the midwest. Not calling somone back is just rude. JMO - I have found midwesterns (me included) might not be as welcoming as southerners at first. But they have sense of loyality & honesty I wish I could find in Vegas. __________________ Northern Europe July/Aug

Dec 13th, 2007, 07:00 PM	#12
IntlSet Bonjour! Location: Chicago	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. I'm from California and I find the opposite to be true. Californians aren't especially friendly folks compared to midwesterners whom I find very warm, friendly, outgoing... I guess it's all relative, isn't it? I imagine southerners are the same way, or a more intense version! I have NEVER heard of "midwestern reserve" before... I had always heard of the midwest being a very friendly place. I'm not familiar with Michigan, but maybe if you were in a midwestern big-city like Chicago, you'd feel differently. I'm sorry you don't enjoy Michigan! Come out and give the Windy City a try! __________________ www.drinkmorechampagne.com

Dec 13th, 2007, 08:53 PM	#13
holly di Member Location: little rock, arkansas	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. I live in ARKANSAS!!!! I live in Sheridan, about 20 min south of the Rock. When dh and I travel, we notice the difference in the people, too. I guess I am so used to the people and the culture here that it would be hard for me to live any where else. __________________ It's a boy!!!!!!!

Dec 13th, 2007, 09:59 PM	#15
Speedy Sofa King Banned Location: N. California	Re: Midwestern reserve... a southerner in need of advice. Oh, boy honey, I SO know what you mean! When I got pregnant with my son, my then-DH and I decided to leave the Bay Area of California (Specifically, San Jose) to raise him in the farmlands and cucumber plots of Michigan, my ex's father's hometown. You'da thought I was from another PLANET they way they treated me! My ex was okay to them, his father was born and raised there, so it gave my ex some kind of automatic roots to the place. I only made one friend the whole time (over a year) I was there the first time, and only because she and I had our sons on the same day. Then DH and I left for a three year military commitment. When we got back to the States and specifically Michigan, all heck broke loose... his mother divirced his father, SHE was suddenly pariah too (she was also born and raised in California) and my ex decided to shun her... like the rest of the town. I'd already decided I was leaving him when we got back to the States, and one day, a few months after we'd arrived, I left him. I took my son and went to stay with my friend I'd shared a room with at the hospital when we had our sons, she helped me find a small place until I could afford to go home. I was lucky she stood by me, the rest of the town either ignored me, or did little things to make me feel very unwanted. Back then the whole town was maybe 800 people, and almost half were related to my ex in one way or another! News travelled fast, and I'd barely called my parents to tell them he and were split up when the "banishment" began. Checkers at stores would always close just as I got to the register, the pharmacy was always messing with me for my prescriptions (say they only had a few days worth, so I had to come back over and over to get more of my 'script) the guy who ran the laundry mat snubbed me everytime I came to the 'mat.... the list goes on. I DID however, make good with my ex-mother-in-law... we both wanted the same things by then, away from the men we married and to get the hell out of Michigan. I remember one incident quite clearly... this was the first time we were there, before I had my son. My ex's uncle owned the local bowling alley and I got a job there as a cashier. Well, all the bowling biddies who felt I'd stolen one of their fine young men musta thought they knew EVERYTHING about Californians... I was wearing a pair of gold hoop earrings, and I lost one. Me being me, I just kept wearing the other one by it'self. The biddies just KNEW when someone only wore one earring, it meant they were lesbians. (Never mind I was 8 months pregnant and they knew my ex and his family!) Of course, when we came back after the stint overseas, I left him, re-affirming that I MUST be gay! (Can't wait to get back to Californication, eh Speedy?) My ex mother-in-law filled me in on what was said by the bowling biddies in the three years we were gone. I was never so glad to be back in California after that. I vowed never to leave my own kind again. Last edited by Speedy; Dec 13th, 2007 at 10:02 PM.