I have a secret.....

[amanda]

Originally Posted by GirlFriday

Ugh! That word again... People give their opinions based on their experiences. When they tell her to try and work on their marriage, maybe they're trying to help her and her kids. They're basing their advice off of personal experience...different personal experience than yours. Maybe they think Ann would benefit from working harder at it. Maybe they've had bad experiences in their marriage and they worked through it and and they're the better for it. Maybe their parents went through a divorce and it was hard on them. You assume that everyone that says something opposite of you is doing it out of some moral superiority. Maybe they say work at it because they think it'll be worth it in the end, even though you think it won't.

But isn't telling someone to "work" on their marriage when they've described at length their efforts to do so over the past 14 years just a tad bit patronizing? I think that's what we're getting tripped up on. The assumption that she hasn't worked is weird, because it seems like she has. Things have gone down hill lately, and at some point she stopped working. That doesn't mean she didn't work for years, right? So simply stating that she should work some more seems a tad bit presumptuous. At some point, working isn't going to make a bad relationship that's been bad for a long time suddenly good. I think that's what Charles might be getting at by calling it judgmental.

Or, as we say in the South - telling someone to work at this point seems a bit like closing the barn door after the horses have already escaped.

[GirlFriday]

Originally Posted by amanda

I'm not agreeing to disagree with anyone that advocates societal standards that we know for a fact encourage spousal abuse and and dehumanization of women. Sorry. That's not something I find morally acceptable.

Nevermind...

[amanda]

Originally Posted by GirlFriday

Nevermind...

Hey, make the snarky smilies all you want. Seems a little ironic, though, but maybe that's just me.

[GirlFriday]

edit.

[amanda]

And now who's the one that probably just needs to agree to disagree and move on?

I was posting about something I consider to be an important issue, and also something of which a previous poster had repeatedly asked for an explanation - if you don't agree what I said, then I totally respect that, but to post a bunch of snarky smilies because I didn't shut up when you told me to is, well, not really in the spirit of this section and disrespectful to the OP. Among other things.

[baby&melovelv]

please stop this nonsense and back to the topic.

Originally Posted by GirlFriday

Since I have permission...

[GirlFriday]

Amanda, I just picked random smileys to be silly. Trying to lighten the mood. No disrespect to Ann and her situation.

[Bella]

Originally Posted by Charles

This is the way I see it. I think marriage, or any long term commitment needs to be entered into after tons of thought and weighing of pros and cons, and once entered into, it should be worked on until you feel it can't be worked on anymore. At that point, if you feel a divorce is the best option, so be it. Ultimately, you have to do what you need to do to be a happy person, cause unless you're happy, you can't give happiness to others. None of us really know the extent that people work in their relationships, so to say "oh, you gave up too easily" is a bit judgmental.

I agree Charles.

[Pishi]

Ann, I've read all 17 pages of posts. First off, I know you are in a very difficult emotional place, because I have been in a similar place (if you minus three kids and add in two dogs). I cannot say that I know exactly what you are going through, because your experience is unique to you. But just a few observations, based on my own experience, to complement the great advice and interesting input you've received to date:

1. When I left my marriage, I had met someone. A few months later, I was traveling and randomly ended up sharing a table with a stranger at an airport restaurant. He had gotten divorced in his mid-40's. I was in my early 30's, and my marriage was quite young (only 1.5 years), though my ex and I had dated for several years prior. I told this stranger my story, that I had met someone new, that I did not want to work on my marriage, and he told me: "You know you're really messed up right now, don't you? Try not to make any permanent decisions."

2. I hadn't realized how true that was until I got to the other side of the fence...divorced, moved, and still in crazy amounts of pain. You don't know how messed up you are. I would guess that your love for the man outside your marriage completely occludes your ability to look your husband in the eye and see someone that you might love. I know this feeling. It is absolutely blinding. Such a love is both a blessing and a curse.

3. I empathize about having a hard time looking in the mirror. I can only say that hopefully over time you will learn how to love and respect yourself again, and look for the positive aspects of yourself both in the past and in the future.

4. Only you at the end of the day can make the right decision for you, and unfortunately, that means everyone else (your husband and kids) are along for the ride. I had my family to contend with. I am still paying for seeking my happiness, and I always will. You have to come to terms with the fact that you will leave bodies in your wake, and by asserting your right for personal happiness, you will have regrets. Lasting regrets, profound regrets, but hopefully over time, some form of the happiness that you sought to balance it out. And self-respect.

5. It's a confusing maelstrom. You are brave, and you are human. I feel a lot of compassion for you and the difficult decisions you are facing. I wish you to have compassion for yourself in the future as you navigate the next months and years. Compassion, because there will be times that you will hate yourself, and there will be times that the most important person for you to love is yourself.

6. This other guy...I hope that if you end up with him, the both of you can build something beautiful together atop the remnants of what you left behind. It's hard to build a strong foundation on soil that's disturbed from a previous structure. I know it. I'm doing it every day. And as other posters have noted, nobody is perfect, and this man will not be perfect. Joining your two families will add a layer of complexity that I know nothing about...but can imagine will be challenging.

7. In a couple years, I'm sure you will be amazed at how much you have survived, how much stronger you are than you thought you were, and how much emotion (highs and lows) you can experience. Be prepared for that.

8. And above all, as I have rambled here, I really wish I could give you a virtual hug. No one can judge you. You are your own worst judge. Take good care of yourself. And do small things to make yourself happy, in addition to considering the huge things. Leaving is an active decision with ramifications, and staying is an active decision as well. In either case, I would recommend reading "Passionate Marriage" by David Schnarch. I think we could all learn something about intimacy in marriage.

Again, your experience is unique, your pain is unique, your challenge is unique. I had no intention of being patronizing, and I hope it didn't come off that way. You're a grown woman who has obviously had many years to think about your situation. The best of luck to you in the difficult times to come.

[Bella]

^ Pishi, I thank you for sharing, that was beautiful.

[Pishi]

Originally Posted by Bella

^ Pishi, I thank you for sharing, that was beautiful.

We are all a work in progress...and life is strange and beautiful and difficult!

[misschbby]

^^^^wow thanks too Pishi truely

[queenvictoria2]

Originally Posted by Pishi

We are all a work in progress...and life is strange and beautiful and difficult!

I agree

[dearmissie]

Originally Posted by Charles

Because using absolutes illustrate a point. In this case, the fact that marriages can't always be worked on, and people who stay together in a failed marriage don't always benefit the child. That doesn't mean I ALWAYS advocate divorce, and that children ALWAYS benefit from divorced parents. I don't think divorce should be obtained easily and I definitely feel a relationship should be worked on, but I also know that sometimes you can't make it work. A few people here are making it seem as though Ann didn't work hard enough, and if she tried harder, her marriage could have worked, and to me, that's an absolute...and a rather subjective one at that. This is the way I see it. I think marriage, or any long term commitment needs to be entered into after tons of thought and weighing of pros and cons, and once entered into, it should be worked on until you feel it can't be worked on anymore. At that point, if you feel a divorce is the best option, so be it. Ultimately, you have to do what you need to do to be a happy person, cause unless you're happy, you can't given happiness to others. None of us really know the extent that people work in their relationships, so to say "oh, you gave up too easily" is a bit judgmental.

I hear this quite often (esp. IRL because this is what some family members of mine say) and I was wondering, how exactly does one define whether or not a couple's relationship is worthy (or worthless??) enough to get a divorce?? How would the law make it so one couple can get a divorce or not another? Only those who have suffered abuse, adultery, addiction, or if they've tried and their marriage didn't work?? How would the government be able to filter who can qualify for a divorce and who can't? And what about for those who just got married because they took marriage so lightly, didn't try, and now want a divorce?? Are they suppose to be forced to stay together?? TIA!!

[merika]

Originally Posted by dearmissie

I hear this quite often (esp. IRL because this is what some family members of mine say) and I was wondering, how exactly does one define whether or not a couple's relationship is worthy (or worthless??) enough to get a divorce?? How would the law make it so one couple can get a divorce or not another? Only those who have suffered abuse, adultery, addiction, or if they've tried and their marriage didn't work?? How would the government be able to filter who can qualify for a divorce and who can't? And what about for those who just got married because they took marriage so lightly, didn't try, and now want a divorce?? Are they suppose to be forced to stay together?? TIA!!

No one can define whether a relationship is worthy or worthless except for the couple themselves, and for it to be a good marriage BOTH people have to say it is worthy. If only one person says it's worthy, it isn't. I'll equate it to a simple AND gate in boolean logic:
No AND No =No
No AND Yes=No
Yes AND No= No
Yes AND Yes=Yes.

I think the government goes by boolean logic too, which is why no-fault divorces are allowed in most states of the US.