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amanda · Jul 6th, 2009, 04:41 PM

Originally Posted by Charles

Sorry, I meant this more as a general comment. In other words..why do people getting divorces really unravel the fabric of society. This talk that too many people don't want to work for their marriage and how it's eroding society. Is it really? If so, please point out examples (that's not to you..again, general comments)

I'd like to hear someone explain the other side of this as well. I don't really understand how divorce in general undermines the moral fabric of modern society. I'd say we're better off, not worse off, that society now allows people (women in particular) to exit bad relationships without enduring heaps of scorn. It certainly speaks to advancements in women's rights.

TopGirl · Jul 6th, 2009, 04:46 PM

are we talking about the same story or maybe I just imagined the OP stating she got into the relationship for the lifestyle ( as a primary reason) how can one call that an honest commitment? :/

and can YOU provide statistics for all of the great things divorce has provided to society (exc. for extreme cases like abuse caused break ups) ? Or maybe I am odd for finding it ridiculous that 50% percent of divorces fail. Or for wondering that people WOULD try harder if they knew that had little to know options.

I don't need statistics to convince myself or you (who have already made up your mind so what is the point of giving you this magical stat. they don't mean anything and there is probably a counter stat on about any subject). what I can do is relie on what i have seen personally and conclude that the quality of RL have gone down hill because people don't give a crap and are too quick to jump into marriage with unrealistic expectations and pull the divorce trigger when things aren't 100% what they imagines them to be.

BTW I have my principles and beliefs and it''s not my fault if it makes soem feel less than and me appear as high and mighty.

Charles · Jul 6th, 2009, 04:47 PM

I also wanted to add that one reason I'm very much behind Ann is cause I think a lot of a woman's worth is tied to her being married. Since childhood it's a girl's dream to have the big wedding and look like a princess in front of all of her friends. It's the ultimate validation of her femininity that a man wants to claim her. To me, that's a crock of $hit, but that doesnt' change that fact that society ingrains that in our young girls. Flash forward to a girl's 20's and she has all her friends getting married and people asking her when it's going to happen, and she looks to a guy, who seems like a great catch, and figures that's how it's supposed to happen. And now she's at this point.

Again, I'm not saying she's a saint or that she's not being selfish, however, at points in your life, you have to be, and I feel this is a point in her life. At this point, it's gone on too long and a change needs to happen, so yeah, it's a great thing that she's realizing this and she's going to let herself find someone who she can actually be happy with and this will allow her current husband to find someone he can truly be happy with. The situation sucks now, but in the long run, it's usually for the best. That's what I'm supportive of. Not her cheating and lying and getting a divorce, and I think it's rather clear that's not why the other posted are supporting her either.

TopGirl · Jul 6th, 2009, 04:51 PM

Originally Posted by amanda

I'd like to hear someone explain the other side of this as well. I don't really understand how divorce in general undermines the moral fabric of modern society. I'd say we're better off, not worse off, that society now allows people (women in particular) to exit bad relationships without enduring heaps of scorn. It certainly speaks to advancements in women's rights.

Divorce isn't the devil but more like a cop out for many. Some go into marriage knowing that divorce is on option hence do not think things threw like they would in the day.

Or can someone explain to me why it is perfectly healthy for 50% of marriages to fail or that most of these marriages were though tbrew in the 1st place in terms of compatibility and expectations and divorce was in fact the last option.

I do not think to. for me the high number of divorce is another effect of this disposable society we live in.

and let's not even talk about the kids, who cares about them right? how many kids would not love mommy and dad to work things out? but mommy and dad don't really have to try- there is divorce .

PS: Reiterating my point, I am not against divorce but more against 50% of marriages failing and the divorce option being a cause.

OP this is way off topic. sorry for the hijack.

amanda · Jul 6th, 2009, 04:53 PM

Originally Posted by TopGirl

are we talking about the same story or maybe I just imagined the OP stating she got into the relationship for the lifestyle ( as a primary reason) how can one call that an honest commitment? :/

and can YOU provide statistics for all of the great things divorce has provided to society (exc. for extreme cases like abuse caused break ups) ? Or maybe I am odd for finding it ridiculous that 50% percent of divorces fail. Or for wondering that people WOULD try harder if they knew that had little to know options.

I don't need statistics to convince myself or you (who have already made up your mind so what is the point of giving you this magical stat. they don't mean anything and there is probably a counter stat on about any subject). what I can do is relie on what i have seen personally and conclude that the quality of RL have gone down hill because people don't give a crap and are too quick to jump into marriage with unrealistic expectations and pull the divorce trigger when things aren't 100% what they imagines them to be.

BTW I have my principles and beliefs and it''s not my fault if it makes soem feel less than and me appear as high and mighty.

I think it's all in your head that it makes people feel like 'less' than you - maybe you'd like it if people felt like less than you, but I doubt it does. Your beliefs aren't better or worse than anyone else's. They're just yours.

And since you're the one claiming that divorce has ruined society, it's fair to ask you to back up that claim. If you can't back it up, don't claim it. And if you're going to claim it, be prepared for people to inquire as to its factual origins. If it doesn't have factual origins, don't state it like it's a fact.

amanda · Jul 6th, 2009, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by TopGirl

Divorce isn't the devil but more like a cop out for many. Some go into marriage knowing that divorce is on option hence do not think things threw like they would in the day.

Or can someone explain to me why it is perfectly healthy for 50% of marriages to fail or that most of these marriages were though tbrew in the 1st place in terms of compatibility and expectations and divorce was in fact the last option.

I do not think to. for me the high number of divorce is another effect of this disposable society we live in.

and let's not even talk about the kids, who cares about them right? how many kids would not love mommy and dad to work things out? but mommy and dad don't really have to try- there is divorce .

PS: Reiterating my point, I am not against divorce but more against 50% of marriages failing and the divorce option being a cause.

OP this is way off topic. sorry for the hijack.

Honestly, I think you're way off base. You can make all the claims you want, but if you can't explain your reasoning when asked, no one's going to take those claims seriously, and it seems like you want people to do that.

The OP has been in her marriage for 14 years. She's had and raised kids with the man. Things have gone down hill, and it appears to her that there's no way to reverse it. She's consulted the services of a professional in order to figure out if her relationship is salvageable and what would be best for all involved. She seems to have given a lot of thought to how her children will take this news. Who are you to say that her divorce is wrong, that she never tried at all in those 14 years, or that she hasn't given a thought to the well-being of her children? All of those things seem obvious. If I were her, I would be incredibly insulted at your continued insistence that she's taking the easy way out - nothing about what she's said has indicated to me that things are going to be easy for her, or that they have been incredibly easy already.

Obviously, the OP is more gracious than I am.

nataliam1976 · Jul 6th, 2009, 04:59 PM

TopGirl, have you considered how many more people stayed in marriages 20, 30, 40 years ago not because they were working harder on making the relationship work but because divorce wasnt as accepted situation as it is now and the pressure of society was so much worse?

amanda · Jul 6th, 2009, 05:03 PM

I also think that the idea that the divorce taboo made people work harder is probably false - I don't think it made the vast majority of people work harder, I think it just made them stay in unhappy relationships for their entire lives because they didn't have any other options. I'd say it's a big stretch to claim that those people were happier because they were forced to stay married.

TopGirl · Jul 6th, 2009, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Charles

I also wanted to add that one reason I'm very much behind Ann is cause I think a lot of a woman's worth is tied to her being married. Since childhood it's a girl's dream to have the big wedding and look like a princess in front of all of her friends. It's the ultimate validation of her femininity that a man wants to claim her. To me, that's a crock of $hit, but that doesnt' change that fact that society ingrains that in our young girls. Flash forward to a girl's 20's and she has all her friends getting married and people asking her when it's going to happen, and she looks to a guy, who seems like a great catch, and figures that's how it's supposed to happen. And now she's at this point.

Again, I'm not saying she's a saint or that she's not being selfish, however, at points in your life, you have to be, and I feel this is a point in her life. At this point, it's gone on too long and a change needs to happen, so yeah, it's a great thing that she's realizing this and she's going to let herself find someone who she can actually be happy with and this will allow her current husband to find someone he can truly be happy with. The situation sucks now, but in the long run, it's usually for the best. That's what I'm supportive of. Not her cheating and lying and getting a divorce, and I think it's rather clear that's not why the other posted are supporting her either.

well at least we agree on something. the majority of people do not think through marriage and the OP has admitted that it was a lifestyle that she wanted.

Most people want a day where everyone focuses about them. Marriage these days is about the day instead of the actual commitment. i bet most don't even bother asking: ( are we compatible? what do we expect from each other? is divorce an option? will i be a SAHM? will being a SAHM make me feel less than and resent you? is love more important than compatibility?).

Heck I think the Op should ask the new guy a ton of questions before getting into it ( i would provide a sample if you don't hate me by now lol).
By sorting out the kinks before hand, I beleive one is better equipped in the long term.

Another thing that struck me in this story is that the Op and hubby seem to have different philosophies on what marriage and commitment are.
OP seems to feel that if she is no longer happy then basta she needs to move on, while the hubby might feel like divorce is not an option unless soemoene is being abused cheated on, etc... hence he is trying by all means to salvage this.

As for the whole hapiness thing , yes it it important but at what cost? other peopel happiness ( the hubby), the children ( that probably know what is goign on, kids are very smart).

And whose fault is it that she is unhappy ( did she have unrealisitc expectations of the marrigae in the 1st place?) will all this unhapiness maigically disappear by going with the new guy?

TopGirl · Jul 6th, 2009, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by amanda

I also think that the idea that the divorce taboo made people work harder is probably false - I don't think it made the vast majority of people work harder, I think it just made them stay in unhappy relationships for their entire lives because they didn't have any other options. I'd say it's a big stretch to claim that those people were happier because they were forced to stay married.

well that is your opinion, but i am still waiting for someone to tell me about all of the wonderful things that divorce has brought to society ( excluding extreme cases like abuse, chronic cheating etc..).

I still have my rationale that people don;t try when they know that ther eis a way out and that divorce is so common these days.

TopGirl · Jul 6th, 2009, 05:13 PM

Originally Posted by nataliam1976

TopGirl, have you considered how many more people stayed in marriages 20, 30, 40 years ago not because they were working harder on making the relationship work but because divorce wasnt as accepted situation as it is now and the pressure of society was so much worse?

Yes many couples stayed together because divorce was shunned by society and could totally ostracize the woman in particular.

But wouldn't that fact ( that there is no way out) make couples more thoughtful about getting married in the 1st place?
I may be naive to think that people would get married for the right reason, sticking to their commitment in this scenario, rather than throwing the towel .

TopGirl · Jul 6th, 2009, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by amanda

Honestly, I think you're way off base. You can make all the claims you want, but if you can't explain your reasoning when asked, no one's going to take those claims seriously, and it seems like you want people to do that.

The OP has been in her marriage for 14 years. She's had and raised kids with the man. Things have gone down hill, and it appears to her that there's no way to reverse it. She's consulted the services of a professional in order to figure out if her relationship is salvageable and what would be best for all involved. She seems to have given a lot of thought to how her children will take this news. Who are you to say that her divorce is wrong, that she never tried at all in those 14 years, or that she hasn't given a thought to the well-being of her children? All of those things seem obvious. If I were her, I would be incredibly insulted at your continued insistence that she's taking the easy way out - nothing about what she's said has indicated to me that things are going to be easy for her, or that they have been incredibly easy already.

Obviously, the OP is more gracious than I am.

great you are right i am wrong . happy? i don't think i need to read the rest of your post nor will i respond to further posts from you.

There is no point. have a nice day.

bisousx · Jul 6th, 2009, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by TopGirl

well that is your opinion, but i am still waiting for someone to tell me about all of the wonderful things that divorce has brought to society ( excluding extreme cases like abuse, chronic cheating etc..).

I still have my rationale that people don;t try when they know that ther eis a way out and that divorce is so common these days.

My father was unhappily married for 30 years and divorcing my mom brought him to the love of his life, my stepmom. My brother and I could not be happier for them. Not everyone suffers from divorce, and I am thankful that we live in a society where we have choices.

OP, life is short and you deserve to be happy. My only 2cents is to be very cautious about this guy you like, because while you may be certain that you are unhappily married, life with new guy might just look greener from where you are right now. best wishes

thelace · Jul 6th, 2009, 05:21 PM

Originally Posted by BagLadie

And I didn't want to post it in the secret section - I need you all to know for some reason.

Wait. What "secret section"?!

redney · Jul 6th, 2009, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by thelace

Wait. What "secret section"?!

The "I've got a secret" thread in General Discussion where secrets are posted anonymously.

ETA: here's a link to it: Our Very Own Purse Secret: Part II

Jul 6th, 2009, 04:46 PM	#197
TopGirl Member Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 36	are we talking about the same story or maybe I just imagined the OP stating she got into the relationship for the lifestyle ( as a primary reason) how can one call that an honest commitment? :/ and can YOU provide statistics for all of the great things divorce has provided to society (exc. for extreme cases like abuse caused break ups) ? Or maybe I am odd for finding it ridiculous that 50% percent of divorces fail. Or for wondering that people WOULD try harder if they knew that had little to know options. I don't need statistics to convince myself or you (who have already made up your mind so what is the point of giving you this magical stat. they don't mean anything and there is probably a counter stat on about any subject). what I can do is relie on what i have seen personally and conclude that the quality of RL have gone down hill because people don't give a crap and are too quick to jump into marriage with unrealistic expectations and pull the divorce trigger when things aren't 100% what they imagines them to be. BTW I have my principles and beliefs and it''s not my fault if it makes soem feel less than and me appear as high and mighty.
TopGirl Member Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 36

Jul 6th, 2009, 04:47 PM	#198
Charles Sucks at budgeting Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Jacksonville, Fl Posts: 6,182	I also wanted to add that one reason I'm very much behind Ann is cause I think a lot of a woman's worth is tied to her being married. Since childhood it's a girl's dream to have the big wedding and look like a princess in front of all of her friends. It's the ultimate validation of her femininity that a man wants to claim her. To me, that's a crock of $hit, but that doesnt' change that fact that society ingrains that in our young girls. Flash forward to a girl's 20's and she has all her friends getting married and people asking her when it's going to happen, and she looks to a guy, who seems like a great catch, and figures that's how it's supposed to happen. And now she's at this point. Again, I'm not saying she's a saint or that she's not being selfish, however, at points in your life, you have to be, and I feel this is a point in her life. At this point, it's gone on too long and a change needs to happen, so yeah, it's a great thing that she's realizing this and she's going to let herself find someone who she can actually be happy with and this will allow her current husband to find someone he can truly be happy with. The situation sucks now, but in the long run, it's usually for the best. That's what I'm supportive of. Not her cheating and lying and getting a divorce, and I think it's rather clear that's not why the other posted are supporting her either.
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Jul 6th, 2009, 04:59 PM	#202
nataliam1976 Dior Goddess:-) Joined: Nov 2006 Location: all around Europe Posts: 12,696	TopGirl, have you considered how many more people stayed in marriages 20, 30, 40 years ago not because they were working harder on making the relationship work but because divorce wasnt as accepted situation as it is now and the pressure of society was so much worse?
	__________________ PLEASE DO NOT PM ME FOR AUTHENTICATIONS Dear Dior fans ! >>> PLEASE READ THIS: Some guidelines/tips on authentication <<< before you post - if you dont provide REQUIRED PICTURES - especially clear close up of the front and back of the inside tag, your posts will not be replied to, thanks !

Jul 6th, 2009, 05:03 PM	#203
amanda RIP Uga VII Joined: Oct 2005 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 11,733	I also think that the idea that the divorce taboo made people work harder is probably false - I don't think it made the vast majority of people work harder, I think it just made them stay in unhappy relationships for their entire lives because they didn't have any other options. I'd say it's a big stretch to claim that those people were happier because they were forced to stay married.
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