Follow up to monitoring teens....story from this weekend

[twinkle.tink]

Originally Posted by Aslan

I think you misunderstood me. I don't mean that I tell my son that it's okay to break my rules outside of my house. The point is that I give him a charge as a child in my house, a charge to obey me, inside my home and out. The problem is that you can't stop your kids from doing something when you are not around. It's just an inherent problem with children, they are autonomous beings. That's my response to: "he'll just use a friend's computer." That's just like me saying, I'm not going to tell my son not smoke pot, I'll just set up a camera in his room because if I tell him that, he'll just go to a friend's house and do it. And as for the mutual mistrust, I've had it happen in my relationship with my mother and am seeing my sister go through it, so to me, it's very real.

This is true and not true...as I said, kids are going to make mistakes and kids are always going to do things you wish they wouldn't...but you hope as parent you have given them a solid base to know right from wrong and the fortitude to do what they know is right...and to stop them for making the big mistakes, if you can...and administer consequences when they don't follow the rules. I think that is the basic definition of parenting...teach your kids how to behave even when you're not present.

Early this year I made a post about the same son...he left the house with 1 close friends and a couple of newer friends...he was back in about 15-20 minutes...we asked him why he was back so soon, he just shrugged. It took awhile and some casual conversation when he finally told my DH. The kids were being 'punks' sitting around starbucks patio making fun of people...'that fat chick,' 'ugly old man,' etc...nothing major, but he said, "Not my kind of fun, I told them to stop, but they wouldn't, so I left" I was proud of him.

I hear you with your trust issues, and it is different for every family. I am curious do you see your mom's side at all, now that you're a parent?

[exotikittenx]

Big thumbs up to you. I work with teenagers and I wish there were more people like you.

[Aslan]

Originally Posted by twinkle.tink

I think that is the basic definition of parenting...teach your kids how to behave even when you're not present.

I totally agree, but I think that secret monitoring actually circumvents this goal. To me, it's like saying, I'm giving you the tools to behave when my back is turned (but no wait, my back is never really turned, gotcha!).

Originally Posted by twinkle.tink

I hear you with your trust issues, and it is different for every family. I am curious do you see your mom's side at all, now that you're a parent?

I do understand my mom's intentions, but I do recognize the deleterious effects her mistrust had on our relationship. I, like many teens, had a rough spot, but tried hard to get back into her good favor. I called when I went out, let her know the names and phone numbers of the people I was with and still she didn't trust me. I started to feel that she was expecting me to fail at any minute. Eventually, I started to not care what I did, because I felt that it would never be good enough; she'd still never trust me. It is a sinking, horrible feeling when you are trying your hardest.

[Hessefan]

Just watching the news and they have a huge story about a 17 year old girl whose body was found today after she disappeared with a man she met on the internet.
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...chool_Tributes

[mcoop13]

Just thought I'd add in my two cents as a college student who was very recently a teenager. I would be appalled to learn that my parents had access to all my private emails and instant messages. Yes, they might have seen secret plans to go out and drink or to stay at someones house whose parents werent home, but they also would have seen conversations I had with my friends that were truly confidential. They would have been able to see my journal (I keep one online that is private, it is just easier for me to keep an online journal than a written one). I would NEVER, EVER think of looking into my Mom or Dad's emails, and I know their passwords. Email is very private- I don't think my Mom would have wanted me reading her private messages.I think parents need to put it in perspective. How would YOU like it if your child was able to read your email? They may find out things you want to keep from them like doctors appointments, financial issues, or even what you were planning on getting them for their birthdays. IMO, trust is earned. If your child has never done anything to warrant you reading their every instant message or see what they google, then why should you? Blocking a website should be more than enough to make sure your child doesnt see something they shouldnt.

[Hessefan]

Originally Posted by mcoop13

Just thought I'd add in my two cents as a college student who was very recently a teenager. I would be appalled to learn that my parents had access to all my private emails and instant messages. Yes, they might have seen secret plans to go out and drink or to stay at someones house whose parents werent home, but they also would have seen conversations I had with my friends that were truly confidential. They would have been able to see my journal (I keep one online that is private, it is just easier for me to keep an online journal than a written one). I would NEVER, EVER think of looking into my Mom or Dad's emails, and I know their passwords. Email is very private- I don't think my Mom would have wanted me reading her private messages.I think parents need to put it in perspective. How would YOU like it if your child was able to read your email? They may find out things you want to keep from them like doctors appointments, financial issues, or even what you were planning on getting them for their birthdays. IMO, trust is earned. If your child has never done anything to warrant you reading their every instant message or see what they google, then why should you? Blocking a website should be more than enough to make sure your child doesnt see something they shouldnt.

Excellent post! I also remember being a teenager, and although I had no internet access back then, it would have disturbed me if my parents listenend to all my phone conversations for example. I remember my mum frequently going through my wallet, supposedly because she wanted to check I have enough money, and she did put some in, but I found that a huge violation and it destroyed a lot of trust between us, which hasn't been regained 15-20 years later. I still hold on to my purse whenever I see her, even though she wasn't snooping otherwise as far as I know.
I also don't think that parents' smug exclamations of having eyes in the back of their head work in most cases. Most of my friends who had very controlling parents are still suffering from bad relationships with their parents and are very hesitant to tell them if they are seeing someone, for example. Some of them are using false last names on facebook etc, so their parents won't be able to see their profile. My BIL hasn't even told his parents that he bought a car years ago, and hides it whenever they come, and would never tell them if he had a girlfriend. These are all people in their 30s, so the consequences might be much bigger than you can imagine now.

[twinkle.tink]

Originally Posted by mcoop13

Just thought I'd add in my two cents as a college student who was very recently a teenager. I would be appalled to learn that my parents had access to all my private emails and instant messages. Yes, they might have seen secret plans to go out and drink or to stay at someones house whose parents werent home, but they also would have seen conversations I had with my friends that were truly confidential. They would have been able to see my journal (I keep one online that is private, it is just easier for me to keep an online journal than a written one). I would NEVER, EVER think of looking into my Mom or Dad's emails, and I know their passwords. Email is very private- I don't think my Mom would have wanted me reading her private messages.I think parents need to put it in perspective. How would YOU like it if your child was able to read your email? They may find out things you want to keep from them like doctors appointments, financial issues, or even what you were planning on getting them for their birthdays. IMO, trust is earned. If your child has never done anything to warrant you reading their every instant message or see what they google, then why should you? Blocking a website should be more than enough to make sure your child doesnt see something they shouldnt.

What you are describing is very, very different from what I do. I do not read every e-mail, IM or online written word.

I only scan when I think something is going on...case in point, this weekend. I felt something was going on, parents are not as dumb as we seem. He did violate my trust, he lied to me, he planned a party at a friends house...to make matters worse, I was responsible for that friend as his parents were gone overnight. I feel no remorse going through his texts to see I was indeed correct. I was not hanging on every word he wrote for the last 3 months just waiting for him to do something wrong. Also, god forbid, something should happen to one of my kids, like the news story Roo posted, I will be able to give information to law enforcement, that just might save my child's life.

Although I, personally, could care less if my son read my e-mails...equating the two is apples and oranges. As much as teens would like to think so, parents and teens are not equal.

Controlling? Hmm, I guess based on this case, you could think I was...but I don't think I am, and having more adult conversations with my 21 year old, he never felt that way and agrees with what I am doing. There are things I have seen, overheard or just 'know' that I let go. I do not snoop in his room, but I do go in to grab dirty clothes or put something away, in doing so, I know have seen things I would rather not, but I left undisturbed. I know where he keeps his journal and letters from his girlfriend, I don't read them. So what's the difference...to me feelings are confidential, actions are not...especially actions which could result in serious consequences. There are times he will be clearly upset and I will ask him about it...sometimes he will tell me and I listen (and comment as little as possible) and sometimes he will say, I would rather not talk about it and I respect that (I don't run and read his journal or check his online stuff).

I am trying not to sound condescending, but really your statement is hubris. It sounds good, but until you've been there, you really don't know what it's like. Even parents, who only have small children, don't always understand. Parenting a teen is tough and I don't apologize for using every tool available to me to keep him safe, because in the end that is what it really is about.

[eff]

Another "when I was a teenager" perspective... my parents did this to me. My whole life I knew I never had privacy while they thought they were being sneaky about it. They would go through my things(diaries, notes, etc.) when I wasn't home, even though I gave them every reason to trust me. I never said anything but it really hurt. It was like they wanted to find me getting into trouble.

Eventually, they monitored my activities online, which I didn't become aware of until they confronted me with the "evidence." They freaked out over what amounted to normal teenage behavior, but I understand that as a parent, you might go nuts if you see your kid doing/saying things you are not ready for. In any case, that monitoring and their confronting me has created trust/privacy issues that are still affecting me in all my relationships. The things they thought were harming me had no lasting effect on me at all, but the harm they did to our relationship and to my ability to trust will probably always be there in some way.

For parents, please consider the lasting effects your lack of trust and invasion of privacy(because that is what it is) will have on your children if you are discovered vs. the effects of you not discovering whatever insignificant thing you might discover. We all have stories from high school that we'd rather not tell our parents, no reason why kids today shouldn't have the same.

[Hessefan]

Originally Posted by twinkle.tink

What you are describing is very, very different from what I do. I do not read every e-mail, IM or online written word. I only scan when I think something is going on...case in point, this weekend. I felt something was going on, parents are not as dumb as we seem. He did violate my trust, he lied to me, he planned a party at a friends house...to make matters worse, I was responsible for that friend as his parents were gone overnight. I feel no remorse going through his texts to see I was indeed correct. I was not hanging on every word he wrote for the last 3 months just waiting for him to do something wrong. Also, god forbid, something should happen to one of my kids, like the news story Roo posted, I will be able to give information to law enforcement, that just might save my child's life. Although I, personally, could care less if my son read my e-mails...equating the two is apples and oranges. As much as teens would like to think so, parents and teens are not equal. Controlling? Hmm, I guess based on this case, you could think I was...but I don't think I am, and having more adult conversations with my 21 year old, he never felt that way and agrees with what I am doing. There are things I have seen, overheard or just 'know' that I let go. I do not snoop in his room, but I do go in to grab dirty clothes or put something away, in doing so, I know have seen things I would rather not, but I left undisturbed. I know where he keeps his journal and letters from his girlfriend, I don't read them. So what's the difference...to me feelings are confidential, actions are not...especially actions which could result in serious consequences. There are times he will be clearly upset and I will ask him about it...sometimes he will tell me and I listen (and comment as little as possible) and sometimes he will say, I would rather not talk about it and I respect that (I don't run and read his journal or check his online stuff). I am trying not to sound condescending, but really your statement is hubris. It sounds good, but until you've been there, you really don't know what it's like. Even parents, who only have small children, don't always understand. Parenting a teen is tough and I don't apologize for using every tool available to me to keep him safe, because in the end that is what it really is about.

I don't think it matters if you scan or read every single item, you may still find personal things, regardless, so it doesn't make it any better if you say you censor yourself and only focus on actions vs feelings.
Secondly, your 21 year old and your teenage son are two different people who may have a different attitude towards it and different feelings about the issue. Since your 21 year old also has no experience with parenting of teenagers, I am not sure his opinion on it matters more than anything mcoop13 just added. Yes, he obviously knows you well, but it is not for him to give his mother advice on parenting his younger siblings.

[twinkle.tink]

Originally Posted by Hessefan

I don't think it matters if you scan or read every single item, you may still find personal things, regardless, so it doesn't make it any better if you say you censor yourself and only focus on actions vs feelings. Secondly, your 21 year old and your teenage son are two different people who may have a different attitude towards it and different feelings about the issue. Since your 21 year old also has no experience with parenting of teenagers, I am not sure his opinion on it matters more than anything mcoop13 just added. Yes, he obviously knows you well, but it is not for him to give his mother advice on parenting his younger siblings.

LOL, he doesn't give me advice on parenting...rather his opinion as a recent teen...and a teen who was, obviously, parented in the same way.

[Hessefan]

Just by coincidence I am watching a show about a troubled teen, and she just said "I know my parents lie to me about things, so I feel it is okay to lie to them."
I still think distrust goes both ways, equality between teens and parents or not.

[jenniferelaine]

I don't have kids & I'm 32 (so, 'youngish') but to me, the bottom line is you do what you have to do & what you need to do to protect your kids in the way you feel is best. Kids are going to find ways to do whatever it is they want to do, no matter what 'generation' it is-be it the 'Dark Ages', the 'Internet World', whatever, but I would think, as a parent, it would be easier to sleep at night knowing you've done YOUR best to protect your child. I can totally see my mom installing a keylogger, if I were a teenager in this day & time & she'd probably tell me & use the words 'for your own good' & I'd be pissed (even as an adult who believes in them). And if I really wanted to do something, I'd find a way, but the point is IF YOU HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE, DON'T WORRY ABOUT IT! As I've said before, the internet is different from reading journals, etc....but I'd put a keylogger on my own laptop if I had a teenager using it, as well as monitor emails. Again, nothing to hide, no reason to care. Private thoughts can be written in Word & password protected in a file or on a thumb drive, but internet access WOULD be monitored in my home-this includes, myspace, Facebook & the like.

[twinkle.tink]

Originally Posted by Hessefan

Just by coincidence I am watching a show about a troubled teen, and she just said "I know my parents lie to me about things, so I feel it is okay to lie to them." I still think distrust goes both ways, equality between teens and parents or not.

To me this goes much more to the sense of entitlement that is rampant today..not just the youth but sadly beyond.

I don't want to say, 'when I was a kid'...because that's not the case...it's more the way I was raised: I was raised that my parents had rules, guidelines and expectations. Do I always follow them? Of course not, but there were clear and consistent consequences when I didn't. They were not the same rules for them as for me...I was a kid. The same holds true to my kids.

Now, the whole my parents do ___, so it's ok if I do ___, is just pure justification and allows them (or anyone) to do things they 'know' is wrong. Not, I am not saying I go around lying to my kids, but there are things that they are not entitled to know.

I make no secret that watch my son closely...he just doesn't know the exact means. If he asked me outright, I don't know what I would do...haven't been there. He does know I check the computer because I few months ago, he put a password on there (for the whole system) and I made him take it off.

[Hessefan]

Originally Posted by twinkle.tink

To me this goes much more to the sense of entitlement that is rampant today..not just the youth but sadly beyond. I don't want to say, 'when I was a kid'...because that's not the case...it's more the way I was raised: I was raised that my parents had rules, guidelines and expectations. Do I always follow them? Of course not, but there were clear and consistent consequences when I didn't. They were not the same rules for them as for me...I was a kid. The same holds true to my kids. Now, the whole my parents do ___, so it's ok if I do ___, is just pure justification and allows them (or anyone) to do things they 'know' is wrong. Not, I am not saying I go around lying to my kids, but there are things that they have no business knowing. I make no secret that watch my son closely...he just doesn't know the exact means. If he asked me outright, I don't know what I would do...haven't been there. He does know I check the computer because I few months ago, he put a password on there (for the whole system) and I made him take it off.

Of course parents should have rules, guidelines and expectations, and most people don't always follow all of them. But I think if the children are teenagers, they should have those internalised so much that they know exactly what is okay and what isn't without having to constantly be checked upon, unless they have been caught making grave mistakes. They may have poor judgement in some cases, but attentive parents such as yourself know their kids quite well, so the pre-emptive checking can be helpful in a few rare cases, but could be hurtful as well.
Kids aren't as dumb as they seem, either. They will most likely know and all I am saying is that it seems to affect the trust they have for their parents in some cases.

[twinkle.tink]

Originally Posted by eff

Another "when I was a teenager" perspective... my parents did this to me. My whole life I knew I never had privacy while they thought they were being sneaky about it. They would go through my things(diaries, notes, etc.) when I wasn't home, even though I gave them every reason to trust me. I never said anything but it really hurt. It was like they wanted to find me getting into trouble. Eventually, they monitored my activities online, which I didn't become aware of until they confronted me with the "evidence." They freaked out over what amounted to normal teenage behavior, but I understand that as a parent, you might go nuts if you see your kid doing/saying things you are not ready for. In any case, that monitoring and their confronting me has created trust/privacy issues that are still affecting me in all my relationships. The things they thought were harming me had no lasting effect on me at all, but the harm they did to our relationship and to my ability to trust will probably always be there in some way. For parents, please consider the lasting effects your lack of trust and invasion of privacy(because that is what it is) will have on your children if you are discovered vs. the effects of you not discovering whatever insignificant thing you might discover. We all have stories from high school that we'd rather not tell our parents, no reason why kids today shouldn't have the same.

Normal teenager behavior is to push the rules and limitations until something: parents, school, law enforcement or nature pushes back. Now what is acceptable teenage behavior is a different matter and needless to say highly subjective.

One could argue, it was normal teenage behavior to experiment with the drugs..and that is certainly true...it does not follow that it is acceptable, at least not to me. On the hand, I do think exploring sex is a normal teenage behavior but I choose to talk to my kids about it, some parents would be appalled.

Most parents always know more than kids think they do. I, personally, would not 'confront' my kids with 'evidence'...that's just not the way I do things. I do believe kids want, need, even crave rules and guidance. My son, probably unconsciously, set off the triggers that got him 'caught' this weekend. As evidenced by his reaction, it is clear he wasn't really ready to break the rules (or perhaps accept the consequence if they really got caught), but was probably caught up in peer pressure...I gave him an out.

I do agree kids always know more than parents think too...it is a delicate balance between the said and the unsaid...but isn't that true in many relationships.