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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 12:57 PM   #1
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Default Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

Hi everyone,

I normally wouldn't post something this personal in here, but I don't know what to do anymore. I'm so upset at what has happened.

Here's a little background just to make things clearer.

T (my great aunt, my grandmother's sister) is 78 years old, has never been married and never had any children. She lives alone in a city that's about 45 minutes away from here and has no family there. She has had a stroke before, but was lucky that her friend was there at that time, because if not - nobody would have found her until it was too late.

My grandmother owns what is called a "Family Grave". My grandfather died nearly 20 years ago, and he is the only one in there. The grave has "room" for 4 people. The grave will "run out" this year in may, and my grandmother has to rebuy it for 10 years.

Her sister, T, was here for Christmas and New Years and while she was here she said that she would like to be burried here where we live since her family is here. But...based upon the rules of our city, you can only be burried here if you are a resident. Since she is not a resident, she would have to get a written "ok" from my grandmother and all of the children (my aunt, uncle and mom).

Nobody has a problem with her being in the grave...except for my grandmother. And we don't even know why (or if) she has one! Yesterday we were all over at my aunt's house for coffee & cake and to wish everyone a happy new year. In the evening, T brought up the grave thing and said she had the papers (the written statement) with her and asked if it would be ok for everyone who needs to to sign. My aunt signed with no problem, and as did my mom. Nobody has any clue why, but my grandmother became very standoffish when T said she would give my grandmother the money for her "part" of the grave when it came time to repurchase it in May. My grandmother basically said "There's no point in giving me the money now since you're not in it yet"...Nobody really understands what this was supposed to mean, but that's when it all started. They started to bicker back and forth about the rules for an outsider being burried in town, and then my grandmother said something along the lines of "Go ahead and do what you want, you know it all ...you always know everything better anyway!" I couldn't write it as meanly as my grandmother said it, since she said it in German...But that's pretty much along the lines of what she said.

Everybody that was in the kitchen got quiet when she said that and pretty much turned white. We knew that nothing good would come out of this situation. So...we stopped the conversation and went home shortly afterwards. At dinner time, we all went over to my grandmother's house where T was staying for dinner. We were all pretty much in a good mood, but we noticed that T was being very quiet. We asked what was wrong and she said "Nothing". So, we left it at that. We ate dinner together and atlked for a little bit, and then we went home.

This morning, my mother goes over to my grandmother's for breakfast (she lives nextdoor, lol). It was around 8.15am. T still had not gotten out of bed (which is unusual). My mom asked my grandmother what was going on, and my grandmother said "She's laying in bed pouting". Apparnetly T had not slept the whole night and cried the whole time. Now, I don't have a very good relationship with T because we're too alike (rofl!) but this broke my heart when my mom told me that.

She didn't eat breakfast this morning, and asked my mom to go with her to the courthouse so they could talk to the grave guy about the rules to make sure that they understood it right. They went and talked to the guy, and everything was the way T had said it was. When they came back, my mom spoke to my grandmother about what she had said the night before and told her to think about how she would feel if someone spoke to her that way...My grandmother didn't say anything.

Fast foward a few hours, it's time for lunch. We go over for lunch since my grandmother had cooked a big meal and T was not there. She had walked out to my Uncle's (about 2km) to get her car since she wanted to go home. She said she no longer felt welcome. She comes back at around 12.45, packs her things, comes up to the kitchen and says goodbye very quietly and goes. I don't even remember if my grandmother said goodbyle or not?

Fast forward another few hours, and we are at my aunt's house to talk about what had happened and what we are going to do if my grandmother really does not allow her to be in the Family Grave. My aunt calls T to make sure that she got home ok, since she was really not fit to drive home based on her emotional situation. Based on what my aunt said, T said "If I am no longer a member of the family, I am going to go". This breaks my (and everyone else who was there!) heart. To hear a 78 year old woman say something like that...to think that her sister hates her and doesn't want her to be burried where she is with her family...It just breaks my heart. She also said that she hopes she doesn't die soon, because she doesn't want to die feeling this way.

She wants to die knowing exactly where she will be burried...She wants to know that she will be near her family (we are all she has) and that she will not be alone.

Nobody knows what do do now. We're all pretty distraught. I have decided to stay out of this because it is an issue between my grandmother, my aunt, my uncle and T. Nobody else. I really have no say in any of this.

Would you guys suggest that my aunt, uncle and mom talk to my grandmother about this?? Let her know what T said on the phone and tell her to stop being so stubbourn and hard headed?? Nobody knows why my grandmother doesn't want her in the grave. We don't even know if that's the case...And I honestly don't think that if somebody asked "Why?" that they would get an answer from my grandmother. I have no clue. Nobody knows what to do. We don't want either of them growing older hating eachother, or feeling like that they are not a member of the family. We love them both too dearly to let that happen.

Any advice????

Thanks for reading!
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 01:07 PM   #2
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

Well, this is classic old age stubbornness at its best. For what it's worth, there have been TONS of studies on how this rigidity and this inability to know when to censure yourself is just old age... they can't "help it" and aren't trying to be difficult. They TRULY feel they are in the right with what they are saying.

So, grandmother is being difficult and not intentionally and probably feels ganged up on.

I guess, another way to go about this is to see if your Aunt T can get residency for your city. Or find other ways of dealing with the death. Is burial the only option? what about an urn and cremation? I guess instead of forcing this on Grandma, maybe coming up with solutions might be better and MAYBE your grandmother will then ease up with her rigidity when she feels she's not being FORCED to do something she doesn't want to do.

And who knows, maybe she feels sharing a grave with her husband is a private thing and that sharing it with her sister is a little "twisted" like they will spend eternity together or that people will think there was something more to the story. She probably bought that plot thinking "Husband, wife and two children all resting together" and didn't think beyond that and is now too rigid in her thoughts to envision it any other way.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 01:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

Thanks for your reply, Berry.

That's the thing, she wants to be cremated and have her urn placed in the grave since I don't think your ashes can be spread here in Germany like they can in the US.

What you say about "Husband, wife and two children" does make a lot of sense...I will have to bring that up to my mom when I speak to her tonight. She and her siblings are all very upset with my grandmother for being this stubbourn, but I don't think anyone really thought about this aspect. I know that my grandma doesn't have a problem with her being burried HERE where we live, I think it just has to do with her being burried in the grave that her husband is in.

We have tried the "getting a residency" route, but it's not that easy. My aunt has volunteered to let her claim residency at her house so she would be able to be burried in the cemetary in my aunts town (not very far from here)
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 01:17 PM   #4
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by berryblondeboys View Post
Well, this is classic old age stubbornness at its best. For what it's worth, there have been TONS of studies on how this rigidity and this inability to know when to censure yourself is just old age... they can't "help it" and aren't trying to be difficult. They TRULY feel they are in the right with what they are saying.

So, grandmother is being difficult and not intentionally and probably feels ganged up on.

I guess, another way to go about this is to see if your Aunt T can get residency for your city. Or find other ways of dealing with the death. Is burial the only option? what about an urn and cremation? I guess instead of forcing this on Grandma, maybe coming up with solutions might be better and MAYBE your grandmother will then ease up with her rigidity when she feels she's not being FORCED to do something she doesn't want to do.

And who knows, maybe she feels sharing a grave with her husband is a private thing and that sharing it with her sister is a little "twisted" like they will spend eternity together or that people will think there was something more to the story. She probably bought that plot thinking "Husband, wife and two children all resting together" and didn't think beyond that and is now too rigid in her thoughts to envision it any other way.
Old people's arguments and logic seldom make sense to younger generations. Maybe there is a way as berryblondeboys said to make your great-aunt a resident? Maybe have her somehow register as living with your family for a while?

Maybe one person who is close to your grandmother can ask gently what it is about. In my experience if all the family try to talk to her she'll get even more stubborn - at least that's what my grandma did!!!
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 01:22 PM   #5
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

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Originally Posted by merika View Post
Maybe one person who is close to your grandmother can ask gently what it is about. In my experience if all the family try to talk to her she'll get even more stubborn - at least that's what my grandma did!!!
This is a good idea too, thanks. I'm not sure who would do it though. I honestly think that her kids are too upset with her right now to do any type of smooth, calm gentile talking.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 02:06 PM   #6
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

^^I can understand perfectly because my great-aunt made a huuuge racket exactly like that when my dad died. My dad was the sort of 'holder' of the deed to the family plot and somehow this deed was misplaced by him and we didn't know where it was. My dad lived in a different city from the burial plot, and was cremated and his ashes scattered (nobody actually even visited that burial plot anymore!) and the same with his stepmom also. So we didn't even KNOW where this obscure deed was.

My great aunt made this enormous fuss about not having a place to be buried in and so on. Everyone was so distraught. And we couldn't find the deed. The her son told her he would take care of things, and got some permission letter from somewhere and she was only happy after that. She was mad at my mom because she thought my mom lost the deed.

Anyhow - this all happened almost 18 years ago. My great aunt is 93 and still going strong!! I guess when you get older, this is a sort of emotional 'putting your affairs in order'....
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 02:17 PM   #7
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

Oi... what a mess. Perhaps your grandma is only being stubborn because she realizes that now she has to think about things like this - I can't imagine being older and wondering how much time you had left - perhaps this is too hard for her to take in/start to deal with?

Just my thoughts.. hopefully it all works out... would be absolutely horrible if something happened and they were fighting all the time.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 02:17 PM   #8
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

*HUGS* Lamia, most people have already said the best points of the situation, so I'm just here to offer my love and support to you and your family!
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 02:59 PM   #9
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

Wow...how scary to have to think about where you want to be buried.

Maybe you guys could buy some plots and give one to her?

I want to buy a huge plot for my family to make sure we are all buried next to eachother.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 03:21 PM   #10
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

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Originally Posted by omgsweet View Post
Wow...how scary to have to think about where you want to be buried.

Maybe you guys could buy some plots and give one to her?

I want to buy a huge plot for my family to make sure we are all buried next to eachother.

Ah, but will your family want the same thing? SOOOOOO many people buy extra plots and assume their children will want to be buried with them... but what about their spouses? Their children? Really, I think people should just take care of themselves and do what's right for them or better yet, ASK before doing something so huge.

My DH and I won't have plots and will donate what can be donated (if possible) and will put in an urn for everything else and put somewhere.... who cares where.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 04:33 PM   #11
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

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Originally Posted by berryblondeboys View Post
Ah, but will your family want the same thing? SOOOOOO many people buy extra plots and assume their children will want to be buried with them... but what about their spouses? Their children? Really, I think people should just take care of themselves and do what's right for them or better yet, ASK before doing something so huge.

My DH and I won't have plots and will donate what can be donated (if possible) and will put in an urn for everything else and put somewhere.... who cares where.
Thats true. As of right now, my sister says she wants to be buried with us. But who knows if that will change once she is married with a family of her own. My husband says he doesn't care...but his mother insists we send him to MN to be buried with their family.

All I know is that I want to be buried with my parents. My husband wants to be buried with me, which def won't be in MN!

PS: Melanie, that new pic of Julia in your avatar is sooooo cute!! If you ever come to the US for a visit, I must meet you. I must bite those cheeks!!
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 04:43 PM   #12
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

lamia, maybe it would actually help if someone who is not directly involved - like you - could talk to your grandmother, from the perspective of being concerned about her. Oddly enough, something very similar happened in my family, and ultimately I was the one who was able to talk to my grandmother quietly and smooth things out.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 04:46 PM   #13
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

Look how complicated it all is. (Not to hijack a thread).

My grandmother bought 4 plots in Iowa when her baby died. She expected it would be for her, husband, the baby and her other child. She didn't know my Mom would come along. Now, there is one plot left and two people who want it (brother and sister - neither married and brother has never had kids.). My Mom feels left out as she wasn't ever "included" and assumes her brother will die before her and since he has no kids, where else would he go?

My MIL wants us to take her ashes back to croatia where she keeps paying for a family lot (and would probably expect US to keep paying for her mom and dad and grandparents).

And us? We've been all over, plan to probably move around some more and really feel a place is a place, but we can't make "OUR" thoughts our family's thoughts on it.

So much simpler when people either just got buried where they died or people didn't move around so much so the family "plot" was just a given.

I personally think cemeteries will become a thing of the past... or at least as we know them in the US.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 05:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

Wow, I'm so sorry this happened! I wish you the best of luck and hope your grandmother reconsiders.
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Old Jan 2nd, 2008, 05:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: Dying and being burried alone. FAMILY DRAMA! (long)

wow...

my heart ached too when T said she didnt feel apart of the family anymore. whatever happens, in the end, i really do hope things get patched up. no one should have to feel like they are unwanted in a family. hugs to you and T. :]
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