Originally Posted by ShimmaPuff

What is in my view, too often the case, is that the father is simply not connected or committed enough to the woman in the first place, or, as mentioned before, is someone whose own personal issues, substance abuse, mental illness, including abuse, even violence, on others, or even more often, simply a very young man, a boy, who doesn't "know his *** from a hole in the ground," and would have no resources himself, either his own personal makeup or financial, to raise a child. Especially in the case of very young and silly fathers, it is not uncommon for them to express the desire to have a child, even the intention of helping to support it. But they have absolutely nothing with which to do this, and even a small taste of the reality of the situation can send them running off into the sunset! Even something as simple as being asked to take the mother to the doctor when they had planned to spend time with their schoolmates. Children having children.

Originally Posted by caxe

It's totally okay to drop these beliefs. Equality and procreation have nothing to do with each other, because when it comes to making babies, the man and the woman aren't equal and thus shouldn't be treated as such or even given an equal voice. The man and the woman meet and have sex, and the potential for new life is there. However, because the man's contribution stops at orgasm, and the mother's entire life, body, lifestyle, eating habits, and god knows what else has to change for the next three quarters of the year in order for her to house, nurture, and birth that child, it makes no sense to give men an equal voice in it. Why should a man, who only puts forth 5% of the effort involved in procreation, have a right to tell the woman, who will have to do 95% of the work involved in creating new life, have a 50% say in the matter? Here's a clue: He shouldn't. Period. Not unless the mother affords him that right and confers said equality upon him.

Originally Posted by ShimmaPuff

Roo, I can state without reservation that if men were the ones who had to carry and deliver the child, or submit to an unpleasant medical procedure to avoid that, Science would have developed some kind of 0% failure rate, easy to use form of contraception with no side effects and a wide selection of April-fresh scents thousands, if not millions of years ago!

I'm sorry if my reply does not make sense...but I am incredibly tired right now, so my argumentative skills are lacking.

I just had to post to say this (please don't flame me):

The quotes above simply scream horrid sexism to me.

I usually respect your well-thought out views, Shimma, but on this one...your blatant predisposition to distrust men is obvious and unfair. It's as though you don't see any horrible abusive single mothers out there. You seem awfully afraid of the fathers treating the child like an obligation, when (in my experience at least) it has been equal as far as which parent steps up to the plate. I have seen horrible single mothers who blame their child for ruining their futures, but did not terminate the pregnancy because of religion. I have seen wonderful single fathers who spend time/money/love/care on the children whose mothers did not care to expend the same amount of energy. It goes both ways for both genders.

I also personally feel that carrying a child to term isn't worth any sort of argument. I find arguments of the man just being "the donor" demeaning to the male gender...as though you mean to make them seem less important because they are not ABLE to go through a pregnancy...I wonder how many would if they could. Not all men are slaves to their penises, and to assume that that is the only reason they have sex is appalling. Men feel emotion too, not only for the woman they are seeing at the time, but many also feel for the child that may come out of said situation.

Now, on to the legalities. I think it should be a LEGAL obligation to tell the man you are pregnant. If you do not tell him, he has absolutely no protection from you and the child showing up in 5 years time to collect back child support that he never knew he owed! It is especially important if you choose to carry the child to term, so he has the option to fight for custody. I want to know how many of you would feel if you found out that someone had your child 10 years ago and you missed out on their entire childhood! Mind you, in the case of rape, the man would not even have the chance to have a say, as he would either be hiding from the law or in prison.

I have much more to say if anyone cares to hear it. I'm only coming down off my high horse because I have to be up at 4 and must sleep now. I'll be back tomorrow evening to read the flames I expect to get for this.

^^^you won't get flamed by me. you make some great points.

Originally Posted by ShimmaPuff

However, here we are talking only of a theoretical child, (and let me disclaim that this opinion proceeds from my own belief that life does NOT begin at conception, therefore the mere fact of her pregnancy does not constitute the existence of another human being, according to the ShimmaPuff orthodoxy of all that, it becomes a baby when the woman decides to be its mother. )

I think, in general, I agree with pretty much every view you have on this subject, SP, except, possibly, this one (although it may simply be a case of semantics!).

I believe that life does begin at conception, but it is not yet human life. It is a potential human being, of course, but at first, it is, obviously, a very much simpler form of life than a fully formed human being.

IMO, the development of the (for want of a better word!) entity in the womb is rather like a mini evolutionary process, which starts as a single cell; just as the first life on earth was in the form of single celled organisms.

Can you blame me for feeling this way?

^ ROFL!!!

Can I just say that I'm not trying to send penises to hell?

Now, testicles, that's quite another matter!

Originally Posted by chloehandbags

...I believe that life does begin at conception, but it is not yet human life.....

to be the devils advocate here, not sure what you mean by "not yet human life"? the human zygote does not even have the most remotest possibility to become anything other than...a human life.

this subject is near impossible to discuss without getting into spiritual beliefs. we're talking about life here and everyone believes in something that shapes their attitudes about the very existence of life. I'm very impressed that this thread hasn't deteriorated into a huge debate - but I feel like I cannot express what I really feel because I will be shot down for the reasons I feel the way I do.
Its unfortunate.

Originally Posted by AnimalCrackers

I also personally feel that carrying a child to term isn't worth any sort of argument. I find arguments of the man just being "the donor" demeaning to the male gender...as though you mean to make them seem less important because they are not ABLE to go through a pregnancy...I wonder how many would if they could. Not all men are slaves to their penises, and to assume that that is the only reason they have sex is appalling. Men feel emotion too, not only for the woman they are seeing at the time, but many also feel for the child that may come out of said situation.

First of all, I do admit that men are important when it comes to procreation. I'm not trying to make men seem less important because they cannot go through pregnancy...what I'm saying is that their OPINIONS are less important and they shouldn't be given any weight as far as pregnancy is concerned. It sounds unfair, but I don't care. When they can start having babies, then give them an equal say in the matter. And if men don't like this, they need to keep their penises under better control, and only have sex when both them and the woman have agreed beforehand on what to do in the event of any pregnancy. If that happened we'd have a lot fewer unwanted children, that's for sure. And as far as men caring about the women they screw and any offspring produced, thta's obviously not true in the MAJORITY of cases. If that were true we'd have a lot fewer domestic violence claims, child support claims, and a host of other issues created by men who don't love and or care about their children or the mothers of said children.

Originally Posted by bagnshoofetish

to be the devils advocate here, not sure what you mean by "not yet human life"? the human zygote does not even have the most remotest possibility to become anything other than...a human life. this subject is near impossible to discuss without getting into spiritual beliefs. we're talking about life here and everyone believes in something that shapes their attitudes about the very existence of life. I'm very impressed that this thread hasn't deteriorated into a huge debate - but I feel like I cannot express what I really feel because I will be shot down for the reasons I feel the way I do. Its unfortunate.

No Shoo, say what you feel there is nothing wrong with it. I would love to hear your opinion. I try to convince myself that life doesn't begin at conception but rather as Shimma stated when the woman chooses to be its' mother.

Originally Posted by caxe

First of all, I do admit that men are important when it comes to procreation. I'm not trying to make men seem less important because they cannot go through pregnancy...what I'm saying is that their OPINIONS are less important and they shouldn't be given any weight as far as pregnancy is concerned. It sounds unfair, but I don't care. When they can start having babies, then give them an equal say in the matter. And if men don't like this, they need to keep their penises under better control, and only have sex when both them and the woman have agreed beforehand on what to do in the event of any pregnancy. If that happened we'd have a lot fewer unwanted children, that's for sure. And as far as men caring about the women they screw and any offspring produced, thta's obviously not true in the MAJORITY of cases. If that were true we'd have a lot fewer domestic violence claims, child support claims, and a host of other issues created by men who don't love and or care about their children or the mothers of said children.

I can understand by this post though what AnimalCrackers is talking about. It just sounds like men bashing. Sure there are lowlife weasels out there among men but there are alot of women out there who are the same way. To single out men - I just don't understand...have you seen any episode of COPS lately? There are quite a few women on there that have no business procreating. To say its okay to not be fair to men is sexism plain and simple. To say men are the worst offenders in a "majority of cases" I don't believe is accurate either. Lets just be fair here and not put all the blame, all the time on men.

Originally Posted by SonyaPhi

No Shoo, say what you feel there is nothing wrong with it. I would love to hear your opinion. I try to convince myself that life doesn't begin at conception but rather as Shimma stated when the woman chooses to be its' mother.

I can't say I agree with this either. So in other words, if the woman is 5 months pregnant, its still not a child if the mother still is unsure she wants to be its mother or not? that doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me KWIM?

I don't think men should have an EQUAL say as to whether or not a women has her baby. They don't here in the USA. My husband being an example. My husband met the woman at the clinic gave her the money and said go in. She refused. But if I were in her shoes (I am no a tramp so I would never be) I would have terminated the pregnancy because I would want my child to have both a mother and a father. But I do think the man should know regardless of the outcome. Except in certain situations.

Originally Posted by bagnshoofetish

I can't say I agree with this either. So in other words, if the woman is 5 months pregnant, its still not a child if the mother still is unsure she wants to be its mother or not? that doesn't make a whole lotta sense to me KWIM?

It's a matter of perspective... I know of women who have had abortions almost at 5 mos. I know it's awful but it's alot more awful to bring a child into this world to suffer when both parents aren't willing to care for and nuture it.

Originally Posted by SonyaPhi

It's a matter of perspective... I know of women who have had abortions almost at 5 mos. I know it's awful but it's alot more awful to bring a child into this world to suffer when both parents aren't willing to care for and nuture it.

I understand what you're saying but like I said, I cannot really state what I feel because then I have to back it up with why I feel the way I do and its just not allowed and understandably so. We can PM each other later....you know I love PMing with ya Sonya.....

Originally Posted by caxe

It's totally okay to drop these beliefs. Equality and procreation have nothing to do with each other, because when it comes to making babies, the man and the woman aren't equal and thus shouldn't be treated as such or even given an equal voice. The man and the woman meet and have sex, and the potential for new life is there. However, because the man's contribution stops at orgasm, and the mother's entire life, body, lifestyle, eating habits, and god knows what else has to change for the next three quarters of the year in order for her to house, nurture, and birth that child, it makes no sense to give men an equal voice in it. Why should a man, who only puts forth 5% of the effort involved in procreation, have a right to tell the woman, who will have to do 95% of the work involved in creating new life, have a 50% say in the matter? Here's a clue: He shouldn't. Period. Not unless the mother affords him that right and confers said equality upon him.

I have to agree.

Much as I would love childbirth to be an equal activity.....who am I kidding? Much as I would prefer the man to have to carry and give birth to the child! As I say, that is simply not possible yet - more's the pity.

I can't imagine that, if roles were reversed, most men would be tripping over themselves to give us equal rights over their bodies, can you? Nor should they; the poor swollen, ice cream eating, contracting things!

This really isn't about being anti one gender or another, it is simply anti control of one gender by another and the right we all have (men and women, equally) to choose what happens inside our own bodies.

I also strongly believe that a woman does not have the right to insist that a man she is with has a vasectomy, against his will, even if she/they cannot use contraception for one reason, or another.

Although, she has the right to choose not have sex with him, of course.

Originally Posted by bagnshoofetish

to be the devils advocate here, not sure what you mean by "not yet human life"? the human zygote does not even have the most remotest possibility to become anything other than...a human life. this subject is near impossible to discuss without getting into spiritual beliefs. we're talking about life here and everyone believes in something that shapes their attitudes about the very existence of life. I'm very impressed that this thread hasn't deteriorated into a huge debate - but I feel like I cannot express what I really feel because I will be shot down for the reasons I feel the way I do. Its unfortunate.

I hope you wouldn't be shot down, bagsnshoo.

Nobody should be shot down for saying what they believe (unless it impacts negatively on other people, of course).

With respect, I think you quoted me a little out of context.

I do know what you mean, but I said it was a potential human life. I wasn't implying that it was some other form of life, or potentially some other form of life, just that I define a human being as being slightly more developed than a bundle of cells.

When the exact moment is that a potential human being becomes an actual human being, I couldn't tell you and is very much up for debate, I think!