question about proper tipping

[plain jane doe]

-On my soapbox-

These are my personal choices. I will generally give a better tip to someone who is an immigrant or an older person. But I don't feel obligated to tip more than the standard for a young person working low wages, and standard to me still means 15%. You say 18-20%, and I know people who waited tables and always tip 25-30%, but I think 15% is still what is recognized.

I have never worked a job that involved tips. However, I have worked for $2/hr, worked on my feet, worked 100 hrs/wk. I worked these jobs because they were easy to get and I didn't want to feel committed to a career track. These jobs were part of a life stage and a learning experience, and I never thought at any time I "deserved" more.

Certain jobs pay less because they is a low barrier to entry. That's not to say waiting tables isn't hard work that most people would suck at. But it's not that hard to get the job, and that to me is an elective trade-off unless there are other reasons like legal work status or language barriers that keep you from doing other things. I feel it is a bit entitled for someone to expect other people to supplement her wages at a job that she chooses to work.

Originally Posted by gutu28

I really wish that everyone would have to serve as a waitress or be a hotel maid for a week or two in their lives.

I have heard this A LOT, that people just don't understand how hard it is to work in a service position. Well, there are a lot of things about any given person's situation that most other people don't understand, but it's not love in the 60s, it's a job and it's business, so I don't see how understanding is needed here. Yes, of course, to general human sympathy, which is why I'm saying I try to give due consideration to people who may be struggling. But let's be honest, most of us in America in our 20s don't do a whole lot of struggling in the scheme of things.

By the way, my brother did work as a waiter in college, and a lot of people treated him like crap, which neither of us agrees with. However, having done the job himself, he treats waiters respectfully but is really not sympathetic to poor service or poor attitudes.

I do agree with Vegas Long Legs, though, the system is broken at the top. I believe that all proper jobs should pay a living wage, but I bet you when/if ever that happens, those jobs will have a lot more competition.

[karmenzsofia]

I tip a bit higher or lower based on the quality of the service I receive and don't take age, gender or race into consideration. I think it's unfair to do that and a form of discrimination--good service is good service regardless of who's providing it. When I was a waitress, it used to bug the crap out of me that the men and older waiters/waitresses got higher tips because of the perception that they were waiting tables to support a household and/or needed the money more than a younger, female waitresses, whom often were thought of as already being supported by someone else and working for "extra" cash. Ironically, more than half of the younger female waitresses were single parents, fully responsible for their household and paying for school to try to get ahead. Soooo unfair.

[Aslan]

Originally Posted by gutu28

I really wish that everyone would have to serve as a waitress or be a hotel maid for a week or two in their lives. I wait tables at a bar&grill type restaurant. Minimum wage for waitresses is STILL $2.13/hr and that's what most of us still get. There are some restaurants that are nice and bump it up to $3/hr. 18% of my total sales are automatically claimed for taxes. This means if I don't make at least 18% on a shift, then I am essentially PAYING to wait on tables. I get it..recession and everyone is broke. If you can't afford to tip your waitress at least 18-20%, the skip that extra beer or appetizer. I shouldn't have to suffer because you're trying to cut back on your spending. Another thing that gets me..those of y'all who have teenage children that can go out to eat by themselves, PLEASE teach them how to tip! Nothing irritates me more than when I get 5-6 who take up my table for 2 hours to drink water, eat a basket of fries, and not leave a tip. Also..if you go somewhere to watch a 3-4 hour football/basketball/fill in appropriate sport here game and stay the entire time the game is on..you tip more than the customary 18-20%. We make money to pay our bills by rotating tables. I miss out on anywhere from $20-$50 when you sit there for 4 hours. Lastly..PLEASE tip your hotel maids. They are making minimum wage to CLEAN your TOILET! You should read Nickel and Dimed to see how hard maids and other minimum wage earners work to make sure your toilet is clean, your cappuccino is frothy, and your salad has enough tomatoes in it. Sorry..I get going about this kind of stuff. I have worked as a waitress all through college and it amazes me how clueless some people about service workers and some of the ridiculous demands we get from customers. ..off my soapbox..

Thank you!

[guccimamma]

I really wish that everyone would have to serve as a waitress or be a hotel maid for a week or two in their lives. - gutu28

i completely agree with this, but for different reasons. it is not the responsibility of the customer (if watching a ball game) to overtip (over 20%) because they sat at a table for the duration. management makes the decision to televise games (to attract customers).

i want my children to have jobs as bussboys/waitresses (when in high school or college) to teach them compassion. i hate to see children/adults who feel it is their right to order a service-person around. i want my kids to understand what it feels like to serve another person, and identify how to interact with others from both sides of the table.

[Aslan]

Originally Posted by Vegas Long Legs

The system is broke when you are paying to work as a waitress & no one sees this as wrong. The blame lies directly with your greedy boss & the whole industry.

Cool, everyone can agree that the system needs to be changed, but this is the way it is now, and if you don't like it, don't eat out! Tips are counted as a part of a server's salary, and that's why restaurants can pay below min. wage.

[plain jane doe]

Originally Posted by Aslan

Cool, everyone can agree that the system needs to be changed, but this is the way it is now, and if you don't like it, don't eat out! Tips are counted as a part of a server's salary, and that's why restaurants can pay below min. wage.

I think this is harsh and reductive . . . Should I say if you don't like it, don't wait tables?

[Aslan]

Originally Posted by plain jane doe

I think this is harsh and reductive . . . Should I say if you don't like it, don't wait tables?

LOL, I have never waited tables in my life, but the lfact is that tips are counted as a servers' salary. It is a harsh fact. Plenty of people understand the system and tip accordingly, and that's why my sister makes so much money as a server in midtown Manhattan. This information is for the people who don't know.

[Aslan]

Just wanted to add that many restaurants, a server has to tip out the bartender (who makes the drinks) and the bussers (who clean up your table). It can get costly if someone does not tip properly.

[plain jane doe]

Originally Posted by karmenzsofia

I tip a bit higher or lower based on the quality of the service I receive and don't take age, gender or race into consideration. I think it's unfair to do that and a form of discrimination--good service is good service regardless of who's providing it. When I was a waitress, it used to bug the crap out of me that the men and older waiters/waitresses got higher tips because of the perception that they were waiting tables to support a household and/or needed the money more than a younger, female waitresses, whom often were thought of as already being supported by someone else and working for "extra" cash. Ironically, more than half of the younger female waitresses were single parents, fully responsible for their household and paying for school to try to get ahead. Soooo unfair.

Interesting point about single mothers. I don't agree that it is a form of discrimination, in any case. I'm not the employer; I am not obligated to treat everyone equally, and I'm not talking about stiffing a young person because I don't think they need it. Over 15% I am simply making personal decisions based on my subjective feelings. I mean, I will tip more if I think the waitress is just too cute and brightens my day. Unfair? Don't really find fairness relevant. Actually the person I tip the most is a kid who waits tables for her grandparents and mouths off to us every time we go.

[plain jane doe]

Originally Posted by Aslan

LOL, I have never waited tables in my life, but the lfact is that tips are counted as a servers' salary. It is a harsh fact. Plenty of people understand the system and tip accordingly, and that's why my sister makes so much money as a server in midtown Manhattan. This information is for the people who don't know.

I do understand the system, and I tip to the standard or, totally unfairly, a bit more. But I don't feel the responsibility to contribute to a server earning to the point where it could be described as "so much money."

[karmenzsofia]

Originally Posted by plain jane doe

Interesting point about single mothers. I don't agree that it is a form of discrimination, in any case. I'm not the employer; I am not obligated to treat everyone equally, and I'm not talking about stiffing a young person because I don't think they need it. Over 15% I am simply making personal decisions based on my subjective feelings. I mean, I will tip more if I think the waitress is just too cute and brightens my day. Unfair? Don't really find fairness relevant. Actually the person I tip the most is a kid who waits tables for her grandparents and mouths off to us every time we go.

Let me just say from the start that we can agree to disagree because we each have our way to view the world. In my view, it is discrimination. There's discrimination in the legal sense of the word, and then there's just plain discrimination, which is what I was referring to. A person doesn't have to be an employer to discriminate against someone based on gender, age, race or good looks. Discrimination is about treating certain groups of people differently, regardless of who you are or who they are. You're not obligated to treat everyone equally--it's not an obligation--just like you're not obligated to treat all your neighbors or coworkers or your kid's teachers or friends or strangers in the street equally. But, IMO, a customer who leaves a higher tip for the thin, pretty waitress (for example) than for the fat one or the one with pimples, is discriminating based on looks vs leaving the tip based on service only. Again, this is my personal point of view.

[Aslan]

Originally Posted by plain jane doe

I do understand the system, and I tip to the standard or, totally unfairly, a bit more. But I don't feel the responsibility to contribute to a server earning to the point where it could be described as "so much money."

If you tip to the standard I'm not talking about people like you.

[plain jane doe]

^^ Sorry, don't mean to give the impression I'm getting my panties in a twist, I'm just getting argumentative!

[sillykitty]

Originally Posted by Vegas Long Legs

The system is broke when you are paying to work as a waitress & no one sees this as wrong. The blame lies directly with your greedy boss & the whole industry. They are the ones who've successful brianwashed waiters to blame the customers for this. There is no reason why they can't change this. They won't cause of greed & they can find those that will work under these rules.

I think it's wrong to blame the "greedy boss". The restaurant industry works on very thin margins. Most restaurants don't survive. If an owner decides to pay more than the going/minimum rate then that is going to directly threaten that restaurants survival. Tipping is simply a part of the service industry. Waiters and waitresses are expected to receive tips, the IRS estimates their income including tips. They are also expected to tip out bus people & bartenders. No one person by not tipping is going to fix the systems. All you do is unfairly punish your waitperson by making them pay taxes & tip out on what they didn't receive.

[plain jane doe]

Originally Posted by karmenzsofia

Let me just say from the start that we can agree to disagree because we each have our way to view the world. In my view, it is discrimination. There's discrimination in the legal sense of the word, and then there's just plain discrimination, which is what I was referring to. A person doesn't have to be an employer to discriminate against someone based on gender, age, race or good looks. Discrimination is about treating certain groups of people differently, regardless of who you are or who they are. You're not obligated to treat everyone equally--it's not an obligation--just like you're not obligated to treat all your neighbors or coworkers or your kid's teachers or friends or strangers in the street equally. But, IMO, a customer who leaves a higher tip for the thin, pretty waitress (for example) than for the fat one or the one with pimples, is discriminating based on looks vs leaving the tip based on service only. Again, this is my personal point of view.

I see what you are saying. Just to clarify, I guess I am making a distinction between a 15% tip and 25% tip. I think 15% is standard and expected and fair unless something is wrong with the service (different issue that would no doubt generate just as much debate). If I left some poor girl a dollar tip just because I didn't like her moles, that would be shitty. If I left a dollar because she was a certain race, that would be outright wrong.

But over the 15ish% that I essentially owe as part of the bill, in my view that is discretionary. Obviously if I tip 25% vs 15% based on race that's still wrong. But at some point I think it's safe to say we all make decisions based on whether or not we like the look of someone, and it's not any point of morality. And it is not all as superficial as moles and pimples. When I say that I leave a higher tip for a too-cute waitress, I mean someone who has a sunny disposition, who was a pleasure to be around for an hour.

. . . And I'm realizing I had to look back to even remember what this thread was originally about. Sorry for the hijack, OP.