Hayden Harnett vs. Rebecca Minkoff

[Sybaryte]

I'm borrowing this subject from the Botkier s-f but my premise is a bit different from that thread. I'm interested in the company as well as the product. Given the amount of RM interest and purchases from HH gals recently, I thought this would be a good topic to explore. And, of course, I have opinions.

To start...

Both HH & RM have customer service issues. Quality control too, although perhaps HH isn't as bad as RM in that regard. (FWIW, I've had QC problems with HH bags.) For the sake of this review, I'm going to ignore both CS & QC. For now....

I think Rebecca Minkoff is a marketing genius

* Establish your basics = hobo, satchel, tote & clutch.
* Brands = Nikki, MAB/MAM, Devote & MAC.
* FOCUS on brands; add a few styles each season for variety.
* Repeat year after year with leather, color, trim, hardware & lining changes.
* Brand identity established.
* Sample and retail prices never less than half list price...maintains value.

Hayden Harnett suffers from ADD

* HH needs to focus on core product and stop being a dilletante.
* Bags, clothes, shoes, accessorries, travel gear, lip balm...what is HH? Don't tell me you're an indie designer and then try to be Anthropologie!
* Establishes iconic bags and then ignores them. When was the last time a HH fan posted a glowing review of their new Havana? Trust me, the Zephyr, Zeus, Origami and Icarus (whatever) won't be back. So make the Havana the center of your showcase with leathers that excite and new trims that sing. And don't dump the Tharpe!
* Runs sales with super low prices that lessen the value of the product. Yes, I wrote that. I love my $169 Trophy but thinking $300 is too much to spend for a Brandy Trophy is not good for the company. RM would never sell their equivalent of a Trophy for less than $350.
* If HH continues to sell low, their quality and trims will remain the same or worsen in quality. Mass merch quality with quirky indie customer service...OY.

[leothelnss]

ITA and have been thinking the same thing, even what you've posted about RM I have thought, especially when browsing ebay. I want HH to succeed and continue to produce so it really is time that they rethink the way they do business if they want to survive in this economy.
Their sales plan has worked for them in the past, but I can't imagine it will work forever.
Whatever they end up doing I hope they remain affordable and high quality. I hope they never go out of business.

[paelaf]

A few random thoughts...

I wouldn't want HH to be anything other than what they are. They are the only brand I've ever felt any loyalty to and I don't see that changing any time soon. I find RM to be kind of boring in comparison. Yeah I just got one of their bags and i do like it, but in general I feel like their company and bags lack a certain...personality. They do have great colors though In terms of quality, from what I've seen, RM bags are pretty overpriced. Same could be said for HH bags I suppose.

HH has great sales and that is part of the reason we all love them. But all the sales do is cause me to buy more than I would otherwise. They always have a few items each season that I have to have and I usually buy them early on. If they didn't have the sales I would probably just leave it at those few things. Would a handbag company really expect more than that from a customer?

So basically...I like the variety, that they try out different things (even if those things are sometimes fug), that they're constantly evolving. I'd like to see some more interesting (or appealing?) colors from them--especially in the spring--but overall I don't have any complaints. I do hope they can keep doing what they're doing :)

[tonij2000]

This is going to be a hot topic! And, let me say that one of the reasons that I LOVE the HH subforum is because generally, we can voice, discuss and respect differing opinions. I do love to chat on tpf about more than just buying bags.

RM = I agree, marketing genious! She got those bags on the arms of so called celebs too!

HH = Love em! I have bought and sold many, many HH bags and I can't remember receiving one with a defect. I think the Clutch Wallet is the best thing since sliced bread! I recently realized that the most appropriate day bag for me is a satchel and HH doesn't have one now that calls to me. I'm looking forward to the Biblio(?) as that one just may foot the bill. I still have my Bowery Clutch and Staci crossbody but for daily wear, I'm carrying other labels.

[True Religion]

I found Hayden-Harnett before I tried a RM bag due to the gushing of so many girls here. As you've pointed out, RM = marketing genius, and she definitely has a rabid following through tPF. I found myself caught up in the excitement of bright colors and reveals, and purchased two RM bags - a Yellow Plan B (love the color but the bag itself not one of RM's best, sorry to say) and a Matinee (looks great on other girls but didn't work for me at all - I found the shape so strange).

Part of me wants to give RM another shot with a Nikki, which I've tried on at Nordstrom and think I like, but I'm at two strikes with RM, and I don't want to spend more money on RM if it just won't work for me. I feel like they don't have the right personality for style. The MAB, Matinee and MAM are all too boxy. The Plan B hobo doesn't slouch well and it has a hard square bottom, hmm. (I guess RM really likes bags with flat/hard bottoms. I like bags that slouch more.)


As for HH - my first Hayden Harnett was a Mercer triple compartment bag in ink. The color was a strange blue-purple. The bag has some flaws too, like - it takes on a funny shape if you don't balance stuff between the three compartments, the shoulder straps keeps slipping and it flattens out like a pancake if you set it down. However, I like that it's flattering on the shoulder, and love the little details: contrast stitching, studs, zipper pulls, lining.

I just got a Havana hobo in ICP off eBay, and I'm once again impressed by the small details, the zipper pulls, the studs, the way the bag hangs pleasantly on the shoulder, and I never thought I'd own a patent bag but I really like the way ICP looks and feels.


Sure, HH has some bags that I don't like. But overall, I like how they're 'quriky', as you say. Also, beyond just bags, what I like about HH is that they DO have other stuff, like shoes and dresses!! And trench coats! They have some of the most unique yet classic pieces on the market.

And yes, maybe HH is wrong to discount stuff so often... I hope it's not a fatal flaw. We're all spoiled now; I would never pay full price for a HH item because I know it will be on sale later. I refuse to pay full price for anything anyway, but with HH I expect at least 60% off.

I've never owned more than 2 bags from one designer, and - if we're just counting bags - I've committed to 3 to HH. (The two that I own, and the DYOB - well I guess that's not completely HH.) I'll looking into listing my two RMs for sale, if that says anything :)

[RealMcCoy]

Thank you, Tonij, for reminding us, as we start this topic, that "we can voice, discuss and respect differing opinions". Each of us will differ, not only because of our design tastes, but because of our experiences with each company and our own expectations.

Example: Syb likes that RM has 4 basics and focuses on 4 styles and repeats them "year after year with leather, color, trim, hardware & lining changes". For me, that is what turns me off from lines like RM and Balenciaga (same bag - different sizes - each gets its own "special name", city bag, work bag, puhlease....). I love the Trophy bag. But, if that was to be one of 4 bags that HH focused on year after year... well, I may not be so passionate about the brand and I certainly wouldn't wait with baited breath for each season's debut. I don't consider HH's variety and experimentation to be "dilletante". I consider it the natural outpouring of a creative.

I think Toni is a creative. She is constantly envisioning, exploring and trying things out. I do the same. I like to "try new looks out" on me. And, I like that Ben prices and reduces items as such that I can gamble on a look without feeling that I've just paid $400-600 for something that doesn't work for me. I think their marketing works for them. If you've noticed, the Wyeth and Trophy hang in there a long time before going into serious discount mode.

I could not hold myself to one look and do it over and over each season. I like that HH is like me - each season in life is a new exploration. Yes, I agonized when the Corcovado was discontinued. My "comfort zone" was taken away! But, as HH sheds a "mainstay", I have noticed they always have one staying in cycle (i.e. they kept the Havana & Trophy) until I adjust to a new "mainstay".

I don't think Rebecca Minkoff is a creative. I think she is a great business administrator. I think she has taken advantage of her connections and built her market. I respect the business woman in her. I think if you look at the history of her brand development, you would find it grew because of strategic placement. It did not grow the same way as HH. HH has had their brand development grow out of what we in the marketing world call "viral marketing" and "organic marketing". HH grew because a customer spotted that bag on another lady across the room and made sure she found out where it came from. They grew because once she found out, she told others. They grew because of this forum that started when all of us who told others, discovered there was a group of us that preferred HH that much. I don't think an HH fan ever buys because "actress so-and-so carried that bag". I don't think that is part of the HH customer profile. Sure, we have a thread where we recognize TV shows and celebrities wearing HH. But, I have noticed how many comments in that thread focus on the handbag or garment in the photo, not the celeb.

RM on the other hand grew her market out of who did carry her bags. In fact, the handbag branch of her brand may not have even birthed if it wasn't for Rebecca's good friend and actress, Jenna Elfmann, asking her to do the handbags for one of her movies. RM has taken full advantage of her west coast location and it's resulting customer base. That is good business. I know she has done marketing things that we "Jane Average Customer" may think are the best things to do to protect her brand, such as shallow discounts, refusing to honor coupons, and excluding her line in store promotionals. But, I have been watching her marketing (since that is my busines, I pretty much watch everyone's marketing) and I think it will be interesting to see how that premise holds for her. She has a fragile customer base in her initial market - the west coast. California is having its own economic challenges. I now see more photos online of actresses sporting HH for Target, than I do special order RM. It could develop into a trend. Think back to what got you to buy your first RM. Was it because you just saw the bag sitting on a bench at a train station - or was it because it was spied on the arm of a celeb as she embarked on a flight to Bali? This is not to say RM's market approach is wrong, just different from HH.

Syb, I do believe you will see RM start having a sale approach similar to HH. She is too good a business woman to not take advantage of every sale she can. Look how many brands have birthed within the last ten years. Before it was difficult for a leather goods designer to find the resources to put their sketches into reality. Today, with China on board, it is easier.

You are right. Marketing is going to become a critical issue for brands and design houses to survive - not only the economy, but the next brand out of the hopper. Even RM has started doing things she has never done before. I remember talkshopping.com announcing her first online sample sale:
"Handbag maven to the stars Rebecca Minkoff is having a major sample sale on her site that started last night and lasts until Sunday. This one's particularly juicy because we don't think we've ever heard of Rebecca slashing prices this much in recent history. "

I do hope Hayden Harnett contiunes to grow through their challenges. And, for the RM devotees, I hope their brand does also. Will I own an RM? Not one of those 4 bags that everyone likes. I won't say what I don't like about their look because that is my personal design feel and would probably upset someone that craves MABs/MAMs. I do like her clutch. When I do see RM that I like, it is usually those "few styles for variety" that are added. But, the problem I have there is that she prices those to accommodate the pattern set-up and small quantity of items ordered in that design. So, the variety pieces are too pricey for something I would just like to try... I would have to wait until they go 60-75% off before I experiment with those, LOL.

[RealMcCoy]

One other thing I would like to add about RM (I know... "just one more word"). I wish RM would do something about her website. It is too non-functional and poorly designed for a company of her stature. She needs to put some focus there. I checked it during that online sample sale. Not a quality site. We may get fussed with HH's web photos, but the fact is that they ARE THERE. I don't get these sites that sell a not-cheap leather handbag but don't provide details and lots of photos, including interiors. A customer shouldn't have to check a half dozen other websites to get a full knowledge of a handbag style.

[dreamofpompidou]

RMC - ITA about the RM website!!! During that sale, half the photos didn't even come up!

I actually managed to not buy a RM during that sale but I did just get a black patent MAM from avelle. I do like it a lot for that subtle classy feel. I like the shape of the MAM actually. Nice and roomy LOL. But I agree that I wouldn't have a tonload of that same bag - I do like it in the charcoal patent though. It was still expensive used from avelle so I won't be buying 3-4 of them. I still have loads of HH accessories (Tonij - I also LOVE the clutch wallet- and I have a silver pilot for 'special occasions' :)) and a MB lolita....I love that lolita. I also have some travel bags and 5 prs of shoes (wow, I thought I parted with a lot of my HH but I still have tons)...ha. I also agree that I love the HH quirkiness and ppl always comment on my bags but have never heard of HH. :) Well I guess I am saying I like both brands. But I have bought a lot more HH due to their massive discounts!!

[missty4]

It's 5:30 am and just woke up to get some H20 since maybe I drank a bit much last night, so please excuse me if I sound incoherent.

RMC - I have to admit that I look up to you for your warm advice and amazing, general knowledge of the creative industry. I agree that certain designers appeal to different people whether it be general brand name recognition through a familiar set of popular designs that's dependably cycled, what's hot/seen on celebrities (RM, balenciaga, LV, Fendi, etc...) or through a more fashion-forward take that evolves and innovates for every season. I believe you're right in tagging Toni as a creative, as she went into Hayden Harnett from an industrial designer standpoint, so I can see her take in the need to create something innovative and practical every season. I love how HH is more indie fashionable, that there is a theme for every season. I remember flipping through lulu's master thread of lookbooks (thanks lulu!) and was impressed how HH evolved during their short time in the fashion industry. How many handbag designers have fashion shows with themes such as tropicalia, cargo cult (which was a hit for fashion week), and coming up spring - deserts, nomads, lava? A part of me wants to see them on a runway, but it's satiated through tableau replete for the previous cargo cult show, which is extremely fitting for HH's quirkiness.

It's true, I do dabble in non-HH brands (I bought a balenciaga city, and a celine bittersweet for the classic white-bag since HH doesn't have anything similar to it, and Jenny Yuen's sherlock for it's classic 1940s's luggage design), but I would not be a repeat customer as I fulfilled my needs of what I was looking for, which, if I couldn't buy it at that time, I know I can get 4 years later (other than the celine bittersweet that was DC'd). If HHHotties were afraid of multiples in HH, we would not make it in other brands that consistently rely on core collections. I do wish HH had more leather options/hardware options and I love how RM does special orders if they meet at least 8 people for each one. I'm waiting for a wine matinee because I love the red and unique Michael Jackson Thriller inspired east-west bag. But I wouldn't repeat the process since again, I fulfilled my need in that brand and am not interested of repeat styles in different leathers, especially the boxiness and little sisters of certain styles (MAB and MAM, Devote and mini devote, Nikki and mini nikki). To me, I can admire the choice of leather, color and hardware, but I don't understand the style and Hollywood's infatuation of it (sorry, my opinions of LA as a Portlander are pretty consistent with other Portlanders).

From a business standpoint - HH does rely on viral marketing. They're on facebook, myspace, twitter, youtube with pretty consistent updates. People ask me what bag I'm carrying and for some reason I always have the HH tag/card with me that I pass on, thanks to all those "lone-single-item" shipments I get. Half of their sales are based on internet sales vs. brick-and-mortar, which ties in the internet viral marketing as well. I think maybe HH is still in the new-kid phase, for how many years they've been in business, and they're slowly backing away from CA-RAY-ZEEEE!@*#$ sales. How many of us are willing to pay retail or close to retail for the fall collection?

I think, if I were to go into a fashion business, I'd have someone else do the business for me since I hate numbers and figures and surveys and just direct my (scattered) attention to design - maybe that's why Toni and Ben make a great team.

[RealMcCoy]

Missty (Thuy), if you need H2O this a.m.... you must have had a good birthday celebration. Hope this year tops last even more. Didn't want to get off subject, but had such a picture of you hugging that water bottle like I do my first glass of tea (yep, here in the south it is ice tea for breakfast).

Thuy, per your post above, I would be willing to pay for the Biblio. I do hope that bag holds to my expectations. I am excited about that one - and the east/west Trophy satchel. I would not pay full price, but I would do 25% off on those two styles, instead of hanging in tooth-n-nail for 60% off. I have to admit, when I owned my jewelry design business, I priced the designs at the front end of the season 25% above what I normally would have costed MSRP out at. That was gravy I made off the customers that loved to be the first in line. They paid a bit above what I felt the product was worth, but they were first to own and they had an extra month of wear out of it that they wouldn't have had if they waited for a better price. Because of this, I have a hard time paying the front end on a line's pricing. I feel the need for the 20-25% to get "in line". It is jus one of those odd quirks of my imagination.

I do hold in for at least 60% off on HH new styles that I am unsure of. Example: I wasn't sure of the Sloane and I was right - when it arrived it was too small for my stuff (the photo made it look huge). But, because I had less invested in it, I was able to recuperate some of my costs off eBay. Another experiment was the Beatrice. It went way down on a timed event special and I bought it. I wasn't sure I would like it, but now I am a big fan of the Beatrice. Maybe Ben is doing something wise when he does the quirky deep-discount specials we hang around for. It gets our feet wet on a style that we may love so much that we keep coming back for more. Like the Pomp. First time I saw it I thought "$155 for 7" of leather? I don't get it." But I did the SO because it was a special promotion. Now, I have experienced the wonders of the Pomp and would not feel the same caution if HH brought it out next season. I think HH sometimes does sales like the taste samplers do at Sams Club, "Would you like to try it?" Yep. I would. HH samplers, yum!

[missty4]

After 2 glasses of water, I moved onto OJ

But tea is definitely a drink of choice. I miss the accessibility of bottled green tea. There's vending machines everywhere in Japan and you can choose warm or cold bottled tea depending on the season. Sorry for continuing the OT, carry on

[siouxie]

Great idea for a thread!

RMC - dead on in everything you say! I do mainly prd mgmt but some mktg for a software co, and while it's not consumer based, the principles are the same.

Everything is changing in how to reach customers, as others have pointed out social networks and technology make closer contact with designers seem almost like personal relationships....and I think very few brands can demand the elusiveness and cache that I think RM is trying to achieve. Some people don't mind that her bags aren't ever cut by more than 50%, but that turns me off. I realize that at some point, it ends up saturating the market and that in itself will turn off some customers. At some level, on different types of items, I think everyone likes to be part of something new before everyone else, or to carry a bag (or a car or a shirt or be into music or whatever) that is different. Several yrs ago my husband got an Ed Hardy shirt at the Hard Rock cafe in las vegas because he loved it and hadn't seen anything like it - paid more than he ever did for any dress shirt, never mind tshirt! But, now they've gone from boutiques and Nordies to Bob's and TJ Maxx.... I'm not saying that is bad, nor is elusiveness the only factor that drives people to buy a brand - ultimately you buy a bag because you just *love* it and want to hug it and look at it on your nightstand before bed :) But, it's nice to buy things that are different - which is one reason I really love HH. Love their quality (been lucky so far) although find CS to be flaky (charged twice for items, items not canceled, slow response, but ultimately all problems solved.)

I agree with what was posted above about RM and her celebrity following helping her, and it is a great biz model. But, not for folks who are turned off by our celeb obsessed society. And, her website is awful - slow, too few images, no use of current technologies...really surprising considering her level of success. I had a MAB mini and thought it sat funny on my arm - the bottom jetted out. Awkward. I love the nikki and carried one around in Clutch for a while but since I require some sort of outside pocket on any bag, I couldn't bring myself to buy one. I love the devotee (esp studded) but for the same reason, will never get one. So, while the bags are nice, they just aren't that compelling to me.

I was wondering for the past few days if HH is just maintaining their prices in the big bust stale because they're not bringing in the revenue they need...maybe extended themselves a bit with stuff for fall? I don't know. As cute as some of their dresses are, i cannot see paying $100 or so for one. Call me cheap (I like frugal better) but nearly everything ends up going on clearance or ends up at TJMaxx, etc....and I just feel like I'd rather spend money on something for my kids, or have $ set aside for some house emergency instead of paying full price for something that I don't really *need*. To me, that's the crux of it. Sure, I've splurged in the past but it generally makes me cringe or have buyer's remorse to buy stuff at full price unless I really need it. Of course, I also know some people who hate buying certain things on sale. It's just not the same rush for them and they feel like they're getting lower quality.

I love the super deep sales - if merchants do them for limited time periods, they create hype and excitement, sell more bags, and reach out to people who would otherwise not be able to buy an item at this time...it builds their base for the future.

[gingeybear]

Syb, interesting topic and some good food for thought. ITA about the majority of the women here. We can agree to disagree without feeling that the wrath of anyone will descend upon us. So that being said, I am going to voice my opinion. I've been mulling this topic over, not just comparing HH with RM but also with BE which I will not do in this thread but will probably start another soon. I started this after RMcC's post but was called away an hour ago..so I'm sure I missed a great deal of discussion..hence..I will probably post again once I return from Costco.

First and foremost, I am a relative newbie to the world of parsing purses. I had worked in showrooms but it was small leather goods, jewelry, designer hats and accessories..not the heavy hitting handbags.

Before last year, I had no idea what strap drop was (other than it happened to me occasionally when I didn't tighten my bra straps), let alone much else. I bought what I loved and what worked, vintage to slightly more expensive designer'ish' bags. Usually on sale..often in black. I was loathe to commit to anything over $100..needless to say, the saga of how I came to HH has been overtold here so I won't repeat.

Suddenly, I was neck deep in discussion of hardware, leather quality, color, pockets, strap type and length (and drop)...and I found myself rethinking everything and looking at purses through a completely different critical lens.

Because I live in NYC, I have access to many sample sales and discount stores that others of you may not. I'm a not a marketing maven like RMcC (hat's off to you and every post you post here..) but ITA..there's a difference between creativity and marketing. RM markets..HH creates. Both are good at what they do.

I find it difficult to be objective because I don't "get" RM bags. The names are amusing, the colors and leathers too..and I do love owning multiples but I enjoy variety. My handbag design idol still is Bonnie Cashin for Coach..IMHO..she got it right. Classics..but always something new in the mix too.

As far as sales..I've noticed that RM has been popping up on designer private discount sales sites more and more. Yesterday they were on ideeli for a song..they were on giltgroupe too. In fact, my local Loehman's has a bunch of current seasons Nikkis (I think??) and MABs for far less than they were in the RM sample sale. I admit that I did go to the site..and I left without being tempted and without buying. I couldn't tell which lining was in the bag, I did not know enough about old vs new hardware (CS & QC issues aside)..the site was not user friendly at all...so I passed.

I believe I am constantly being tempted by the RM rabid fans' avidity..not because I actually like the bags. The two styles I saw IRL would not work for me at all. The openings were too small, the handle drop (see I know what I am talking about now) was too short, the MAB is too boxy.

But kudos to RM..she certainly knows how to place her product, and then gets 'face time' in the magazine genre of People and OK..which creates an entirely new customer base..all for free..just give a celeb a bag gratis..and watch it go viral. If you look at certain apparel and acessory websites, you can actually shop not only by designer but by "celebrity look"...to me that says it all.

ITA too about connections..without them so many designers would not be able to get a foot in the door, let alone a following. I know that from personal experience. I sold handpainted, remodeled vintage clothes and bags in local boutiques. I had some of my handmade bracelets placed in Gallery of Wearble Art and in the old Henri Bendels...back in the day when Bendel's had open 'look sees' on Fridays for fledgling designers. I was hoping to become the next Wendy Mink and was told that my designs were far more innovative and edgy..but other than selling what I made by hand..I couldn't get anyone to front me. That was back in the day..but the same goes for students at FIT or Parson...or anywhere today. If you don't have the connections, it a tough I still dream about what might have been.

That's why props go to Ben & Toni. Do I have issues with QC & CS..yes..but like syb say..off the table for now. Although the colors of the bags in the catalogue and the website often do not resemble the real deal..overall it is a well designed and well maintained one. I know very little about this aspect, but I do know a bit about marketing and presentation.

Am I pleased about the way HH conducts sales? Not really. I don't think it's right that they drop the prices below what their purveyors are able to..although I am grateful the way it affects my pocketbook. They sure know how to work it..facebook, twitter, email..but why different sales for different customer bases and different prices, free shipping for one, not the other..that's not quirky..that's unfair..and plain irritates the living daylights out of me.

As far as their products, I do wish that certain styles would be "classic HH" the Corcovado, the Gaza, the Tharpe and they do keep the Havana and the Lorca year after year. Does the Havana work for me? No..but for those of you who adore it, it's a constant. That being said, I can't wait to see what inspires Toni every season. She is a true Renaissance woman and draws inspiration from the oddest combos..and yet makes it work. Even though I am not a fan of this season's line, I admire her vision.

As far as offering other non-HH items on their site..for those of you who have never visited the Greenpoint store..that's what is so charming..I believe that Ben and Toni are simply attempting to offer their customers as close to the IRL experience as possible.

More pondering and probably another post later..I'm taking advantage of the sun..thanks Syb!

[lulu3955]

Here is my 2 cents
When I was growing up my mom had a huge collection of Dooney & bourke handbags and she had a couple (2-3) Hermes bags which were brought out for special occasions. You could say I got the handbag bug from her. After years of collecting DBs myself I decided to find my own handbag voice. HH was the place for me. While my friends talk about their new Fendi, Gucci, Bal, Channel, LV, Hermes bags I stay true to my own style which just happens to be HH, 49 sq mi, vintage kooba and Mauro Governa.

A friend of mine owns a small handbag shop and will never carry HH because they change too much and she kind of scoffed at the fact that they would sell there things at anthropologie and target. She said I can't compete with target prices and HH sales. Would you buy an HH bag from me at full price knowing that HH might have that same bag on sale for half the price next week. I have to sell things at full retail. I'll stick with brands that sell at full retail.

Things I look for in a bag is an Interesting Handle, Fab leather, Prints. So I guess my point would be that I'm ever changing and my interest in certain handbags styles-prints change and morph over time along with me. an interesting handle is only interesting once. So I like that HH changes with me. It's almost like we are growning up together.

I agree that other companies wouldn't sell In season handbags for 50% But they had to do something to break free from the pack and get your handbag attention. Cuz like most people I found out about HH from the fab sales. *I really hate to admit this but* I do think it might be time for them to stop the number of sales they have and do what most do..... off-season bags on sale only, staples never/rarely go on sale, predictable return policy.

I really like the fact that most of the time HH is unpredictable (i will miss that if it ever changes) and I also like that they feel more personable. How many of us can name about half of the HH staff. I think the original idea for facebook, myspace and twitter was to make us feel like we are special, in the know and close to HH and over time as business grows those tools are used to grow a business and yet still try to keep the feeling of being personable.
I don't know anything about marketing. I should have left this to the pros to discuss.

Sorry, about that it!!! that was a ramble and a half.

[RealMcCoy]

Gingeybear, I like how you summed it up. RM markets...HH creates.

As to marketing, you said...
"Am I pleased about the way HH conducts sales? Not really. I don't think it's right that they drop the prices below what their purveyors are able to..although I am grateful the way it affects my pocketbook. They sure know how to work it..facebook, twitter, email..but why different sales for different customer bases and different prices, free shipping for one, not the other..that's not quirky..that's unfair..and plain irritates the living daylights out of me."

May I respectfully suggest that perhaps HH might not have to cut below their purveyors and do such unpredictible social marketing/sale options if their purveyors did equitable marketing? I know you feel for the retailers. I can see you've had experience on each side of the counter, so to speak. My experience is on the designer/wholesaler end, so I probably do have a soft spot for what Ben & Toni are having to deal with.

I feel that if the Bricks/Mortar stores took advantage of every market resource, promoted the HH brand, and built customer loyalty as part of the design team, they could move merchandise earlier and at less discount. I think we all agree that the product is there - the question is on the marketing.

B&M stores are having to do a major marketing mind-shift. What they use to do doesn't work. We, the customers, know that. I look at the store ads in the newspaper and shiver at the bill the stores are paying out on traditional advertisement that doesn't work. I know this because I contract those same ads for some of my clients. I can tell them how little return for the dollar they can expect, and they still will buy that full page ad because they always have before.

I give kudos to Ben for working every avenue he can. I don't think he does all this because he doesn't have other things on his to-do list. I think he does this because the retailers aren't doing it. And, now that I've reflected on this, I think HH earned the right to make the decision instead of being held captive to equal or exceed whatever prices the B&M stores set. I still feel for HH on that January crisis they faced when they had to take back inventory from one of their retailers because they didn't get paid. They had to scrabble to move that merchandise out themselves. I would say such things are going to affect how HH feels about "price matching" those retailers. I also think RM is going to see alot of that happening also. I would be very surprised if we don't see 60%+ discounts on her merchandise come Christmas 09. I think the only thing that has held her back from doing that with online ordering is the fact that her website isn't functional.