Hayden Harnett vs. Rebecca Minkoff

[RealMcCoy]

Since my post seems to have been the one that garnered much attention from RM devotees, I thought I would clarify some of what I said. Apparently my thoughts behind what I wrote didn’t come through the words. ..

B. Jara, thank you for the fact that the bag designed for Jenna never made it into the movie. In my post, I said it was made for a movie at the request of Jenna. To me the fact that FedEx delivered it incorrectly and it did not get into the film was immaterial to the thought I was trying to get across.

What I was trying to convey was that her handbag line grew out of a single bag a friend requested – a friend that happened to be a celebrity that saw an opening in a film project to promote her friend, RM. And, there is nothing wrong with that. I am glad Jenna recognized RM’s talent. That same friend, Jenna, was the one that wore RM’s tee shirt after 9/11 on the Jay Leno show. The public notice from that show is what encouraged her (and her employer) to see Rebecca start her own clothing line.

The bag that didn’t make it into the film was the MAB. RM, herself, said “I made one for Jenna and one for myself and figured I would add it to the clothing line, it will just be one accessory. I had no intention of getting into bags. But then Daily Candy wrote about it and it just took off.”

So, I don’t think we can ignore the impetus that encouraged RM into designing the MAB –her first “It” bag. Would it have become an instant “It” bag if Jenna had not requested it and if it had not been seen on the arms of celebrities? It may have reached “It” status anyway, but it might have taken longer than a year if those connections weren’t already in place. And, it might have been a different bag if the purpose/scene that Jenna needed the bag for hadn’t influenced it. I was trying to indicate that original purpose and customer connection played a big part here. There is nothing wrong with using every resource (including strategic connections). It shows RM is a good businesswoman as well as a designer.

Ivysun, thank you for stopping by HH. I have read your devoted posts on the RM thread. Yes, RM’s company is in NY and I am certain you fell in love with her bags before YOU saw a celebrity carrying them. I was trying to convey that the number of connections and friendships that RM has within the film/theater industry has had an impetus on her line. If Jenna, and other celebrities, had not carried the bag, would so many high-end stores have immediately carried the RM line within 24 months of its debut? I don’t think so. I know how getting a foot in the door with the buyers at Nordies, Bloomies, Niemans, etc. works. As to sending bags, read Toni’s post. She has had celebrity customers come to her store. It does not sound like she has sent bags as promotionals to these celebs. I truly respect that Toni pleads for their privacy – and, in all this time that I’ve been on tPF, I have never heard her promote the celebrity that carries her bags. Kudos, Toni. I also mentioned that the HH fan tends to seek the bag, not the celeb. You can see that by reading posts on the “sightings” thread.

Ivy, I feel I must reply to your statement, “RM doesn't do crazy sale like HH because people are willing to pay high price for her bag”. I think there are people that will pay full price for both lines. They are always there in any designer’s following. I can speak for myself. I would not pay full price for a MAB (or any of the main 4 or 5 bag styles). I would pay full price for a Trophy bag. Look at the two bag styles. They are entirely different. The lady that loves the Trophy bag is not going to like the boxy MAB. It’s not to their taste. My background is in architecture. I find RM satchels structurally remind me too much of a shoebox with decorative ends and flaps. That’s just my taste. Not yours.

I would like to review your comment about celebrity brands such as Jessica Simpson. I consider that to be somewhat of an “apple to oranges” comparison. RM and HH happen to be indie designer lines that happen to be carried by celebs. Sybarite was not off in comparing these two lines. Many of us are cross-over shoppers between the two. However, celebrity lines like Jessica Simpson’s happen to be mass-produced “street lines” licensed by Jessica Simpson. Not comparable. A line designed by a designer is different from a line designed by a celebrity -or designed by a manufacturer hired by the celebrity to produce their own licensed line.

Also, Ivysun, I am sorry to tell you I have tried the Nikki bag. It does not win me over from the Havana. But, I am glad you found your perfect handbag. I do like some of the seasonal variety bags of RM’s. I actually would like to see those get better exposure than they do. I think they get sacrificed marketing-wise in preference to RM’s promotion of her core group. I sometimes loose interest in her other bags because I have to go to a half-dozen different sites to see them. Her “shop online” section of her company website only promotes her significant dozen. I think that is a missed opportunity in her marketing.

[gingeybear]

May I simply clarify that none of this was to bash RM or laud HH at the other's expense. RM does not work for me. Neither do other indie designers' bags. I have tried RM's IRL. I have also tried others. Most of each designers bags don't work for various reasons, and I've had issues with one in particular about many aspects. But I am merely talking about lines and proportions now.

A close friend adores RM bags. Design wise, RM and another brand do not please my aesthetic sense of proportion at all. But both RM and this other brand have avid followers. A healthy competitive market is good for the economy and for style choices. The old "that's why there's a Macys and a Gimbels" that my grandmother used to comment when faced with why she chose X and not Y, comes to mind.

I for one am not an It Bag follower at all. I march to my own calliope and almost pride myself in speaking my mind, buying what I want, and wearing what I want..as long as it flatters me and I don't break an ankle wearing or using it.

As for the rest of RMcC's post...as usual, I can merely bow my head in admiration of her vast knowledge and apt phraseology. So may I simply add..ITA.

Now..let us all go Fourth and stimulate this economy so neither RM nor HH go the way of GB!

[RealMcCoy]

Toni, thank you for your posts. I love the opportunity to hear directly from the designer. Third-party inverviews/reviews can only reveal just so much about the designer since they are written from that reviewers' point of view. From your words, I learned so much as to why your line is what it is. Before I learned you were an industrial designer with a studio art background, I knew your handbags (and other products) were not developed out of the traditional fashion school background. Who a creative is, their background, their study, and their lifestyle all come through their designs. My background is architectural design. For 8 years I had a jewelry design studio and marketed at many of the regional apparel marts. At first it bothered me that retailers ordered my designs because "they were earrings that balanced on the ear well, were classic but had such a splendid use of color". I thought I should be setting trends (I was younger). But then I realized that the reason I started making the jewelry in the first place was that I had a hard time finding jewelry that fit - especially earrings that fit my ears. And, in spite of my desires, that was what the buyers noticed. In other words, there were many women like me who couldn't find good-fitting, well-balanced earrings. So, I really appreciated your ethos: "whatever it is that i'm looking for, at least 1000 other women exactly like me are looking for the same thing". So true. Keep that as your mission statement.

I like that you "don't follow any road maps". I think your marketing program is on target. I think you can't go wrong with developing your direct sales through your website. I think B&M stores are going to have to painfully go through a metamorphis as to how they will do business. I don't think you will want to be so embedded with them that you have to deal with that pain as they change.

Thank you for your declaration that "creating living art is what thrills you about fashion". I appreciate that. I am not a fashionista. I do appreciate the art side of fashion, and, yet, I do love it to be livable. I like that your shoe line offered functional heel heights when so many designers are putting their shoes on scaffolds. Not livable. I do hope you can return to shoes - and many size 11s! I love the oxfords and the cut-out booties that you showed in your Fall preview. I understand how difficult shoe lines are, but do encourage you to return to doing them when the economy adjusts.

I discovered HH during the sample sale just prior to last Thanksgiving's sale. Since then, I have researched all your previous collections. You have been continually evolving. I love that. I am so excited about your Fall group and can't wait to see the S/S 2010. I also hope you do more DYOB auctions. I really desire a moonbeam trophy bag and fear that is the only way I will get one. There you have it, everytime any of us talk to you, we end up giving you a shopping list. So girlie of us. And, for gingeybear, jenn and me - consider a large bag in British Racing Green, LOL. Maybe for Fall 2010?

[RealMcCoy]

Originally Posted by gingeybear

I march to my own calliope and almost pride myself in speaking my mind, buying what I want, and wearing what I want..as long as it flatters me and I don't break an ankle wearing or using it... Now..let us all go Fourth and stimulate this economy so neither RM nor HH go the way of GB!

Gingey, I knew you were a calliope girl. No basic drums for you. And, yes, we bravely go forth to stimulate the economy.

[missty4]

Toni, thanks for coming on the forum to post your thoughts. A lot of us admire what you do and I for one look up to you for your aesthetics and can understand the need to create. I draw on the back of prescription pads on the pharmacy and post them all over the place, most of them of the bag design I'm trying to come up, lol. I hope your 4th was great and Benjimina caved on the puppyfront :)

RMC - I think we should nominate you as HH diplomat.

Gingey - i got my trigger finger ready....

[gingeybear]

Originally Posted by RealMcCoy

Gingey, I knew you were a calliope girl. No basic drums for you. And, yes, we bravely go forth to stimulate the economy.

Don't forget the zither and the oud..LOL

RMcC...I too designed a line of cuff bracelets but not on the scale that you did. My wrist was too small for conventional jewelry. Need begat art so to speak.

I used silk and hand beading and embroidery (inspired by Lesage), and brass and hotglued Swarovski crystals and seedbeads often in a homage to Klee. I have no design background, I just knew what I wanted to wear, got stopped in the streets and began in my basement. Dad helped me design vices to hold the bracelets and tools that worked and made the brass, copper and broze cuff blanks in his tool and die shop for me. I was a one woman operation and had to stop when my hands could no longer handle intricate work. I still make them at times and still handpaint fabrics and vintage bags.

My dream was to take jewelry design classes and learn how to work with precious stones and metals. It's still a dream. I always dream. Sometimes I am fortunate enough to fulfil them. I have sketchbooks, I draw on DH script pads too (LOL Thuy), on scrap paper, post its, on the margins of my notebooks..always have..perhaps I shall have a sketchbook on my tombstone?

Perhaps that is why I am drawn to HH. Toni's creativity is a joy for me to behold. I love playing who is she referencing (I had fun when Cherub (where are you chica) posted the Fall Fashion shoot...

I am still hunting for the elusive purple Gaza..and some of the older iconic styles but every season is inspired by her magpie brain..and I mean that as a compiment not an insult.

I am waiting to stimulate..but I am alas, yet unmoved. I'm sorry, Toni, I am simply not a Spring girl...especially this Spring although you have many fans.

....and please fulfill our deep and oft voiced longing for a (non-Havana sorry, I can't wear them) satchel or shoulder bag or HH newborn style in BRG..

[strixnebulosa]

Toni, Thanks for your thoughts. I think it's the personalized touch that makes your business what it is. We can see you guys in the Youtube videos having fun and considering your products with great care and passion with a sense of humor. Your designs are unique and I love that creativity and design are what drives you. With so many companies, it's like there's a giant wall between the customers and wherever the products come from but with HH we can put a face behind the name. Your items are timeless and top quality.

[jennirane]

Wow... this is what I get for going to Pittsburgh!! I missed the conversation with Toni... great thread, Syb (although I DID post glowing reviews and pics of my new Euc Havana!!) I tend to fall near RMC in the HH/RM toss-up, both in terms of the basic approaches of the two brands and in the sense that I like the variety of HH over RM. It was wonderful to read Toni's post and it all made sense. I just can't believe, personally, that I've fallen so hard (almost nine months--how gestational--and I have a pretty full collection). I, too, am a "creative" and need that change and challenge (and sometimes failure) to keep me interested. I suppose LP would be another interesting comparison, and I've bought a few of the Dylan bags and wallets in the last year... but I'm drawn to them as a single unit (leather, slouchiness) rather than as art... they're comfortable rather than beautiful, and I realize that other than variations in color, they're basically the same... I'm not as drawn to the other styles. My Dylans make me feel invisible (which I often like) but my Trophy or my Steel Sloane make me feel beautiful or powerful or creative or mysterious.

[jennirane]

One other thought... the whole celebrity thing... I think it's great for some small designers when their bags are photo's on someone's arm. Free advertising! But it means nothing to me (the daughter of an Olgilvy & Mather creative director). A student complimented me on my KP Corc one day and I'd just read/noticed that it had appeared on Gossip Girl. We were doing a pop culture unit, so I felt I had to mention it, but we ended up having a great conversation about why I was actually a bit embarrassed to be carrying a bag that someone on Gossip Girl would carry!! (I'd be happier if it were Cuddy on House LOL! She's closer to a 40-ish college prof!)

[balena]

Wow, lots of great posts in this thread and thank you Toni for sharing your thoughts with us! As someone else already mentioned, I love how HH feels like a company made up of real people and that you guys do things to make us customers feel like there's actually a connection to you rather than just the product or the brand name or merely the allure of the brand name. I really want and hope for continued growth and success for you guys as I have been buying HH bags for the past three years now. Every HH I own (with the exception of a Marcel that I found recently on bonanzle) has been a purchase directly from the HH website.

I have recently waded into the RM waters, and actually, the celebrity "endorsements" were part of what kept me away for a long time but I recently discovered a style in RM that really speaks to me (no, not a nikki or a mab/m).

While I am not super active on TPF, it may seem that I have jumped ship to RM but I haven't. For me, it's about the styles that both brands offer and how some of those styles work for me personally. I love the variety that HH offers but my appreciation of Toni's aesthetics translates to very few bags for me on a practical level because I still buy what works for my style (which tends to be pretty dark and utilitarian). I love so much of the Fall 09 that we've seen in the lookbooks but more on a design junkie-level than an OMG-I-Want level.

RM does seem to create from more of a marketing/sales volume perspective rather than Toni's "pure" creative perspective – both have their merits and I think a healthy balance of both of those energies are what build healthy, competitive brands.

[Sybaryte]

Originally Posted by jennirane

great thread, Syb (although I DID post glowing reviews and pics of my new Euc Havana!!)

Thanks! Yes, you did post an enthusiastic review of your 1st Havana. Sorry my point wasn't clear...those RM girls are waxing poetic (OK, maybe that's taking it a bit far!) about their 5th, 6th or even 12th Nikki.

Maybe that's also the difference between fan and fanatic.

FWIW, two of Toni's first six tPF posts were on the HH-Celeb thread.

[chriseve]

Now, THAT is an honest open letter, no gimmicks! I respect HH as a brand so much more now. Thanks Toni for response/comments!

[jsenning]

I'm an RM and HH fan, and I tend to lurk more than post here... but I wanted to say that you gals are very insightful and I have enjoyed the conversation you've had here. I hope both brands continue to grow, and stay true to themselves. <3

[Suzzeee]

Originally Posted by RealMcCoy

And, for gingeybear, jenn and me - consider a large bag in British Racing Green, LOL. Maybe for Fall 2010?

I'm in for a great bag in British Racing Green as well - I love green bags and darker ones are so hard to find!

[annam]

Originally Posted by Suzzeee

I'm in for a great bag in British Racing Green as well - I love green bags and darker ones are so hard to find!

Me me me me!! Pleasssseee!