Hayden Harnett vs. Rebecca Minkoff

[gingeybear]

Toni..I met you in person at the NYC SS in March..I know you were busy but we chatted for one moment about "The God's Must Be Crazy" and Diana Arbus..you were warm and funny and treated me in the same manner as you treated Soon Yi..and yes I noticed her there but decided she deserved the same shopping experience we all had..frenzy and all.

I appreciate your visit here. What I love about this particular subforum is that we are secure in the knowledge that we can voice opinions here..and almost no one..not a member..not the mod..not you or Ben will descend like a ton of bricks..it's refreshing that you make no excuses for CS or QC issues..but instead directed us to communicate directly with Ben..and believe me..well..perhaps Ben is cringing as I type this..some can of worms you opened..oh creative goddess..!

I have visited the Greenpoint store twice to experience the vibe..and of course to buy..and to try..and to ogle. I love Greenpoint because it hasn't changed that much..G train right from where I live in Queens..and please, if you have a moment, ask Brandy what I (the hyper redhead) think about your store and the "tchokches" and amazing jewelry that I sighed over..not to mention how much I adore Brandy..and Jinhee who was so helpful..and Karen..and everyone I have met..Tracy..too..(my height which is so amazing to see. Real people...which is another thing..props for that too..IRL photos).

Thank you for popping in here. Thank you for laying it all down TNT...tuchas oif en tish..Yiddishism for straight from the hip..literal translation makes no sense..butt on the table.

I can only speak for myself but you have such an eclectic background and mental archive that I love seeing and reading about what inspires you..I enjoy much of what you do..but I would never have dreamed of combining cargo cults with Diane Arbus...(why Diane Arbus and not weegie..LOL).

Thank you for making a pair of boots that fit over my calves..I bought three pairs..and gifted another. My KP Corcovado has been much abused and has held up to almost anything I've thrown at him...and he has also been thrown around..and run over too..still almost perfect..in fact..battered is better.

People have asked me about the Corc..and my Ramones. Thank you for taking them just to the edge..but not overboard (Joey and CBGB (OMFUG) were in my past) Ditto my wonderful wonderful boots.

Toni, I went to a wedding..Issye Miyake skirt...vintage jacket..Bronze Anaconda Lorca as a clutch..Platinum Lizard and Bronze Anaconda Ramones...and Bronze sandals (if only you had made them..not Donald Pliner). I received so many compliments...I just want to pass this on too.

One thing I would like to ask about the clothes. I'm short.5'1".....but not thin..not fat at all..just kinda curvy..I tried on every item of clothing in the store..and the sample sale....every jacket, coat, vest, dress and shirt...not one single thing fit me right. It is refreshing to see that your clothing is designed for "real" women..but I'm real too..just vertically challenged yet with "stuff"..junk in the trunk..small waist...shortwaisted..long legs..thighs..boobs...not a petite. Can't you throw us a bone..one or two iconic pieces that would fit? I understand the financial aspects..no factor..one backer..truly independent..but it can't hurt to ask.

I've kvetched about the sales..as have others..yup...we're spoiled...not ungrateful though..just spoiled brats. I for one would never have been able to afford what I own now..and love..and wear..had it not been for those sales...and DH would never have gotten me my Marcel either..so please..don't punish your children...oh kind and generous mother of us HHHotties...I humbly throw myself at your feet in supplication.


Oh...and I'll quit whining about the BB sale too. (May I peek at the woman behind the curtain next time I visit the mothership???)


Lulu..the fees for licensing are a byatch..and material and production costs keep soaring too...yet HH always manages to make me happy.

Thank you Toni. As far as my signature..I promise to change is as soon as I get me some..

[Sybaryte]

Toni - Thanks for posting!

Coming back to one of my original points, while the fab five (or three?) are still in the line-up, they're not getting the focus I think they deserve. Borrowing from Dirty Dancing, "Nobody puts Havana in the corner!" Re-inventing product via different leathers, hardware and trim while maintaining identity is something that RM has done brilliantly. And I prefer HH, so I'd like to see more of it in HH! Give me a reason to add more Havanas and Lorcas to my closet. Color alone won't do it 'cause I already have that covered.

(And please bring back my beloved Tharpe.)

[lulu3955]

Originally Posted by tonihacker

RE: non-hh stuff on our website posted by lulu3955: -AH reminder! yes, new jewelry coming asap to our online boutique. we'll send a mailer out when the goods get posted. new jewelry brands: oblik atelier, brandish, pade vavre, mifflin (the new stuff is SO amazing), and erica weiner coming for fall09. -we are also possibly collaborating on a custom scent for our stores and website with DS & Durga. i want to do scent duo of some sort...light and dark.

I can't wait! That is so exciting about the jewelry. I must start chanting "must save money for jewelry and handbags"
I custom duo fragrance is awesome too. I won't get my hopes up but I would love to smell Peonies and Chocolate, lilac and leather, grass and dirt *sounds weird but I like the smell of fresh dirt* Tuscan Blood Orange and Denim

ETA: about the paule marrot thing. As you all know I'm a huge fan of the print. not only that but I really like the durability of the paule marrot lined items. They really seem to hold up well. A similar "canvas?" like material would also strike my fancy just as much.
a Girl can dream can't she. :)

[Sybaryte]

^Reminds me of Missoni:

Notes:
Radiant Yellow Accord, Bergamot, Magnolia, Loquat, Chocolate Brown Accord, Gianduia Chocolate, Amber, Magenta Pink Accord, Peony, Rose, Intense Oranges Accord, Mandarin, Bitter Orange, Persimmon.

[ivysun]

RM's company is in NY, not CA. I felt in love with her bag before I saw any celebrity carrying. She did not get famous because she has celebrity friends.. Look at jessica simpson's brand or whatever celebrity brands. Why aren't they getting popular or even have a sub-forum here.. I am sure they have a lot more cele friends than RM.

Plus, what's wrong with celebrity carrying her brand? I am sure most if not all brands (RM or HH) send their bags to celebrities. The question is which bag celebrities choose to carry. RM doesn't do crazy sale like HH because people are willing to pay high price for her bag. She is creative and has a lot more styles than the ones that were mention. Just not all of them stay from season to season so people may not know about those styles. She did made two 'it bags': MAM and stud devote.

Anyway, HH fans - go buy a nikki bag.. you will know what I am talking about.
ok, I know this is HH forum.. so i run now...

Originally Posted by RealMcCoy

Thank you, Tonij, for reminding us, as we start this topic, that "we can voice, discuss and respect differing opinions". Each of us will differ, not only because of our design tastes, but because of our experiences with each company and our own expectations. Example: Syb likes that RM has 4 basics and focuses on 4 styles and repeats them "year after year with leather, color, trim, hardware & lining changes". For me, that is what turns me off from lines like RM and Balenciaga (same bag - different sizes - each gets its own "special name", city bag, work bag, puhlease....). I love the Trophy bag. But, if that was to be one of 4 bags that HH focused on year after year... well, I may not be so passionate about the brand and I certainly wouldn't wait with baited breath for each season's debut. I don't consider HH's variety and experimentation to be "dilletante". I consider it the natural outpouring of a creative. I think Toni is a creative. She is constantly envisioning, exploring and trying things out. I do the same. I like to "try new looks out" on me. And, I like that Ben prices and reduces items as such that I can gamble on a look without feeling that I've just paid $400-600 for something that doesn't work for me. I think their marketing works for them. If you've noticed, the Wyeth and Trophy hang in there a long time before going into serious discount mode. I could not hold myself to one look and do it over and over each season. I like that HH is like me - each season in life is a new exploration. Yes, I agonized when the Corcovado was discontinued. My "comfort zone" was taken away! But, as HH sheds a "mainstay", I have noticed they always have one staying in cycle (i.e. they kept the Havana & Trophy) until I adjust to a new "mainstay". I don't think Rebecca Minkoff is a creative. I think she is a great business administrator. I think she has taken advantage of her connections and built her market. I respect the business woman in her. I think if you look at the history of her brand development, you would find it grew because of strategic placement. It did not grow the same way as HH. HH has had their brand development grow out of what we in the marketing world call "viral marketing" and "organic marketing". HH grew because a customer spotted that bag on another lady across the room and made sure she found out where it came from. They grew because once she found out, she told others. They grew because of this forum that started when all of us who told others, discovered there was a group of us that preferred HH that much. I don't think an HH fan ever buys because "actress so-and-so carried that bag". I don't think that is part of the HH customer profile. Sure, we have a thread where we recognize TV shows and celebrities wearing HH. But, I have noticed how many comments in that thread focus on the handbag or garment in the photo, not the celeb. RM on the other hand grew her market out of who did carry her bags. In fact, the handbag branch of her brand may not have even birthed if it wasn't for Rebecca's good friend and actress, Jenna Elfmann, asking her to do the handbags for one of her movies. RM has taken full advantage of her west coast location and it's resulting customer base. That is good business. I know she has done marketing things that we "Jane Average Customer" may think are the best things to do to protect her brand, such as shallow discounts, refusing to honor coupons, and excluding her line in store promotionals. But, I have been watching her marketing (since that is my busines, I pretty much watch everyone's marketing) and I think it will be interesting to see how that premise holds for her. She has a fragile customer base in her initial market - the west coast. California is having its own economic challenges. I now see more photos online of actresses sporting HH for Target, than I do special order RM. It could develop into a trend. Think back to what got you to buy your first RM. Was it because you just saw the bag sitting on a bench at a train station - or was it because it was spied on the arm of a celeb as she embarked on a flight to Bali? This is not to say RM's market approach is wrong, just different from HH. Syb, I do believe you will see RM start having a sale approach similar to HH. She is too good a business woman to not take advantage of every sale she can. Look how many brands have birthed within the last ten years. Before it was difficult for a leather goods designer to find the resources to put their sketches into reality. Today, with China on board, it is easier. You are right. Marketing is going to become a critical issue for brands and design houses to survive - not only the economy, but the next brand out of the hopper. Even RM has started doing things she has never done before. I remember talkshopping.com announcing her first online sample sale: "Handbag maven to the stars Rebecca Minkoff is having a major sample sale on her site that started last night and lasts until Sunday. This one's particularly juicy because we don't think we've ever heard of Rebecca slashing prices this much in recent history. " I do hope Hayden Harnett contiunes to grow through their challenges. And, for the RM devotees, I hope their brand does also. Will I own an RM? Not one of those 4 bags that everyone likes. I won't say what I don't like about their look because that is my personal design feel and would probably upset someone that craves MABs/MAMs. I do like her clutch. When I do see RM that I like, it is usually those "few styles for variety" that are added. But, the problem I have there is that she prices those to accommodate the pattern set-up and small quantity of items ordered in that design. So, the variety pieces are too pricey for something I would just like to try... I would have to wait until they go 60-75% off before I experiment with those, LOL.

[Sybaryte]

Ivy - no need to run...this isn't one of those forums!

I started off this thread by mentioning some of the core RM styles - not all of them - and I did mention that there are others. I have a Nikki - in Night Blue - love the distressing and the hardware but I miss the exterior pockets on my Havanas. I also have a Henri - not one of the core styles.

I also agree with you regarding celebs...they certainly don't make or break a brand but it is fun looking at the pictures in People, US and In Style. I love fashion and most celebs are actually more normal looking than freakish fashion models! Los Angeles is a big city and we're not all celebs...or at least not to anyone other than ourselves!

[leothelnss]

Originally Posted by tonihacker

*our crazy sales/why?/how?/are we stupid and/or crazy?/sales as brandkiller?: -as iterated before, we are truly an independent company. we do not have any type of backer that we can ask for cash or for help. we're not opposed to having a backer, but the right person has yet to come along. we also do not operate the majority of our business as wholesale. this means we can control our prices. we can decide to run a really fun and crazy sale if we want to! hurrah! i would think that's a good thing... honestly, ben is the business side, but i am the marketer. i generally decide what a juicy hh sale should consist of. i try to make sales that would make me freak out and be super-excited...i love the frenzy and i love it when the sales are really, really fun. it makes me happy to know that we are paying our bills + so many people get either: a) what they wanted all season or b) they get to try hh out for the first time. you save money by hearing about our sales and by being part of our mailing list. we make some money to pay bills, you get what you want, we get what we need to keep going. i do apologize to those offended by getting a really great and super high quality bag that looks awesome for less money than our standard retail. sorry for that. i just wanted you to have a good time. you don't have to drink the tequila at our parties to enjoy the band. we do have seltzer available and quiet seats near the balcony. ... also there are some big changes coming up on our business side this fall i hope, so you may not get to enjoy our crazy, fun sales so much anymore.

I hope you don't think we were implying that you guys are stupid or making bad decisions for your company, we just wanted to know (or at least I did) that these sales don't bode badly for the future of HH.
I know Goldenbleu (another brand I like) went out of business shortly after putting their items up at very steep discounts, 75-90% off.
It is nice to know that HH is doing well and if the business side needs changes for the betterment of everyone involved, I'm glad they will be happening.
Though I do love those crazy sales!

[Sybaryte]

Originally Posted by tonihacker

we can decide to run a really fun and crazy sale if we want to! hurrah! i would think that's a good thing... *why so many different sales? actually, we only have 3-4 MAJORLY massive sales during the year on our website: spring sample sale, the big bang sale, the fall sample sale, and the holiday sale we generally do to kick off the season around thanksgiving. also there are some big changes coming up on our business side this fall i hope, so you may not get to enjoy our crazy, fun sales so much anymore.

[skydive nikki]

Thanks Toni H! That is really cool of you to come on here and post. I love that you put things on sale because otherwise I would never be able to afford such amazing bags! To me it doesn't matter if I spend $600 or $200 on something if I like it. Spending $200 on a $600 bag does not make it any less special. I think it's awesome that I can get a great deal. If people don't want great deals then they can just pay the whole price. They don't have to take part in the sales.

[Suzzeee]

Wow - amazing posts - no time to read all - must get my act together -- going to the County Fair today --- yes, I said Fair-- I grew up a country girl and love a good fair

First, awesome info Toni and so great that you came on and shared.

Personally, I have both HH and RM and here's how I see them:

RM -- great marketing -- a lot of hard work and a little luck has gone into her marketing (I'm in that biz so know a bit about what it does take) -- her bags are classic with a twist imo -- I see my RM's as a bit more sophisticated bags than HH -- I've not had QS issues with what I've bought but some CS issues for sure. I do love that Rebecca shows up at so many of her sample sale events. As for celeb endorsements - for me personally it depends on the celeb -- I'm not interested in what LiLo is carrying and don't really want an IT bag that's trendy so that's not what has driven me to RM, but I'm sure that's helped her biz immensely as Americans are celeb crazy.

I see HH as much more of a cool, indie product -- they've done a good job with their clothing and shoes as well - I honestly didn't think the quality of either would be anywhere near what it is. HH -- I love how you guys are creative spirits, but you need someone on board at this point who is a true business person -- you've grown a lot and your CS is suffering. I've also had several small boutiques tell me that they may not continue to carry your brands because of the crazy discounting HH personally does -- I think it's important to have retailers where people can discover your bags in person and it's nice to see something online and be able to find it at a retailer and try it on before ordering it. It is a little frustrating to buy something and have it go on sale a few days later at a much lower price but it's always fun to get a total deal! I know licensing is expensive, but I will miss the Paule Marrot prints if they do indeed go away.

In this economic client, I think everyone, especially smaller companies without huge resources, is vulnerable and doing what they have to stay afloat -- if you have to have a quick sale to raise money because you have a large bill due, then right now that's what you do but down the road when things calm down it should probably change. The one thing I would hate to see is HH using cheap leather and having poor quality -- Coach has done that and they are starting to really suffer for it -- they were once known for their quality leather bags, but no more sadly.

[trayc41]

Thanks so much for post, Toni! I am new to HH, but after reading your post it made me appreciate my new beauties even more! Thank you for creating such a unique line, with such wonderful quality and having sales so that I can afford to enjoy them!

[tonihacker]

hi, ladies-

wow- thank you for the warm welcome...odd, but i love how each person's personality really shines through on this forum...i feel like i know you all somehow :)

gingeybear, of course i remember you! actually, i have to admit that i do not know what soon yi looks like, but if i was talking to her at our sample sale then i'm happy to have helped her out. love woody allen! you and i had a really interesting little design conversation, i remember.

ok, ladies- i need to be outside and to drag benjamina out avec moi! i'm trying to get him to give in on the puppy front. i want a boston terrier so badly! a cute little sibling for daisy and py. he can be the mascot at the hh bklyn store.

PS- i am taking your advice on the BB sale front...yes, we were keeping things under control, but i'm willing to make it a bit more fun, haha. SO, stay tuned on sunday and see what happens.

pss- spring 10 is super great. also, sad news....we are probably going to put the shoe project on hold until we weather through the economy. the spring 10 shoes may be the first and last (for a bit). the sell-through has been good and i loved this project, BUT shoes are a really tough wholesale business that, at our size, we're not quite ready to get into. if you love the shoes, as i do, i do recommend to stock up.

pss- the mercury wedges, the iskias, and the athenas are really fantastic- they go with everything, are so comfy, and look amazing. ben and i went to see Twelfth Night in Central Park and jeff goldblum was there...he was totally checking out my mercury wedges in black! ben was only a little jealous.

[chodessa]

Thanks for the heads up Toni!
Hope you continue to peek around HH Hottieville~

[Sybaryte]

For Toni - Boston Terrier Rescue, New York:

http://www.btrescue.org/ny/

http://www.nebostonrescue.org/

[swolfcg]

Toni was here and I missed it....uh...*falls over & dies*
It so cool that they come here and read are posts from time to time. What other designers do that?
Too bad about the shoes, b/c I was starting to really get into them; esp. the fall preview.
So, what does that mean for the fall lineup?