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Roo · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:16 PM

Ok, I can see all the points here about contracts, fees, etc.

But what a Judge will look at is what is reasonable.

If the photographer wants to assess various fees after all this time, then I have a feeling a Judge will agree that it's their perogative to do so.

If you go to court and lose, it may end up costing you way more than the $1500, kwim?

olive519 · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:20 PM

Had anyone in the studio told there was a time frame, an expiration date, etc I would have acted quicker but don't do well without deadlines.

And everytime I called the office, her partner would tell me "oh it'd no big deal, people are still calling me from '99"...so he gave me a false sense of security

in no way did I say this did not drag on.

And for the person that indicated I was a deadbeat, how? They were paid for something they have not yet delivered and I'm a deadbeat, for what, paying them in advance?

olive519 · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by ILuvShopping

you said you have SO much free time now that you could use to go and sue them.

I also said i'd rather resolve it, but willing to dispute if necessary

domlee · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:31 PM

In the end...

The $275 is going to be pretty close to the basic costs of the small claims court filing fees. So to make LIFE simpler for yourself...pay the photog for the negatives and get it done elsewhere. Because the outcome from the court is going to be either:

1) You pay the $1500+ fee and get an album (from a now pissed off photog) which may lead to a crappy looking album.
2) You pay $275 and get the negative that allows you to produce an album anywhere.

Technology has changed. You can't deny that. But what you're trying to do is effectively leave the photog hanging (because you were grossly negligent) with the film development costs...which is clearly becoming more expensive as time goes on. That is UNFAIR and UNETHICAL on your part.

Make all the excuses you want, but you were grossly negligent.

That is like finding an old menu for a take-out restaurant and demanding they honor their old price because you have the old menu. Or because you have a classic car, you're demanding to pay for parts and gas on the old prices, not current replacement prices. The supply for your product (as an entire industry) has shrunk.

Sorry, but I still side w/ the photog. And you'll notice that the majority of posters here side w/ the photog for a reason.

olive519 · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:37 PM

Domlee, I hear all your points above.

My only objection is comparing a contract to an old takeout menu, not really the same thing.

ilovepinkhearts · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:38 PM

ok, then if you paid for her services and that INCLUDED the album of 20 pictures and there is no time frame on the signed contract then she is to deliver them with the fee that was stated for waiting so long. if there is no clause about the price going up and fees for having to switch media. she would just have to take the negatives that you request and then get those developed or do them herself. even if she was using digital she would still have to have them printed. so either way it goes from the camera to paper, whether it's digital or film.

**maybe she should have a time limit clause on her contract so that way she wont have to deal with issues like this if she doesn't want to produce what was paid for, but she didn't. yes it may be a pita to now find those negatives and print them but a signed contract is a signed contract and her services were already paid for...so when there is no time limit and no other fees stated then i don't think she can stick you with those fees unless there is somewhere stated that fees will apply and can be assessed by her and how she deems fit.

Vegas Long Legs · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by olive519

And for the person that indicated I was a deadbeat, how? They were paid for something they have not yet delivered and I'm a deadbeat, for what, paying them in advance?

I think the judge will see you as a deadbeat. For not acting in a timely manner. For wasting his time if you go to small claims. They've given you a very reasonable offer to settle this. Small claims is about reasonable settlements. (I worked as a paralegal & handled small claims years ago.) Judges don't like people wasting their time when there is a reasonable offer on the table. This is a very reasonable offer.

You can't think like a 'bride' here. That time period has passed.

olive519 · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:41 PM

Btw, I don't post on here to get a bunch of "yes men" responses.

If someone points out flaws in my viewpoint, then I may change my perspective.

Like I said, I am willing to work something out, without being taken to the cleaners.

Ellie Mae · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by olive519

Had anyone in the studio told there was a time frame, an expiration date, etc I would have acted quicker but don't do well without deadlines.

They did tell you there was a time frame. You stated that your contract said after 12 mos there would be a surcharge. Prior to NOW, did you ever ask how much the surcharge would be?

ORIGINAL POST:So, I got married in 2005 and just got around to getting my act together to request the wedding album. Yes, it's been 4 yrs but I could offer up a bunch of excuses why I never had the time. My contract stated I was due an album with 20 photos and there was a surcharge if you ordered 12 mos after.

olive519 · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Vegas Long Legs

I think the judge will see you as a deadbeat. For not acting in a timely manner. For wasting his time if you go to small claims. They've given you a very reasonable offer to settle this. Small claims is about reasonable settlements. (I worked as a paralegal & handled small claims years ago.) Judges don't like people wasting their time when there is a reasonable offer on the table. This is a very reasonable offer.

When you say reasonable offer, you mean the $275 for the negatives right?
(lol, free legal advise! You may have saved me some money already :-)

olive519 · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Ellie Mae

They did tell you there was a time frame. You stated that your contract said after 12 mos there would be a surcharge. Prior to NOW, did you ever ask how much the surcharge would be?

ORIGINAL POST:So, I got married in 2005 and just got around to getting my act together to request the wedding album. Yes, it's been 4 yrs but I could offer up a bunch of excuses why I never had the time. My contract stated I was due an album with 20 photos and there was a surcharge if you ordered 12 mos after.

The surcharge was in the contract, $250 after 12 months, meaning that I could still order the album after 12 mos and pay a contracted for fee $250)

plain jane doe · Oct 28th, 2009, 01:59 PM

I think OP is right to argue. Yeah, she should have done it earlier, but she has a contract. By right I mean from a business-is-business standpoint; I'm not going to bother with whether she is or is not "morally" right or whether this is a moral issue.

I understand that working for yourself in a creative field can be difficult, but I don't agree with the argument of nobody understands how hard this that and the other is, so give me special treatment. Every job has difficult aspects. People choose their jobs, choose a degree of creativity and autonomy over, say, corporate insulation and security. That doesn't mean they are agreeing to be treated like shit, but there is a different set of problems and trade-offs that they are accepting as part of that choice.

I have a dear friend who is starting out as a freelance designer. I love her, I do not want to see her screwed over, I get angry at people who do or try to screw her over, and yes, and I think those people are shitty. But if a client takes advantage of her because of a lack of proper provisions in a contract she herself has written, then there is nothing she can do except learn from that lesson when she writes the next contract. I would not advise her at that point to try to change her terms on the client or make legal claims because the language she used did not reflect all her assumptions.

ilovepinkhearts · Oct 28th, 2009, 02:06 PM

^^exactly!

if it's on a signed piece of paper and if it has no clauses about late ordering then the photog is required to do the job as promised...and she is the one that provided the contract, so she is legally bound to it.

**and a side thought, since the fee is only $25 less than the price for all the negatives i say get all the negatives and ask for the album you already technically paid for and get some pics developed. take the film to walmart or a drug store and get them printed...pretty cheap and then slowly do your album :)

olive519 · Oct 28th, 2009, 02:08 PM

Thanks plain jane doe, I don't want to screw them but I also don't want to be screwed.

Contracts exist for a reason, and contracts don't have "in the spirit of" feelings

if she had told me she needed a fee to get the prints out of storage and some extra time that I would have paid and agreed to.

If you write an open ended contract, it's still open ended. I worked with data contracts for a long time, and when we didn't notify a vendor of cancellation by the specified time, well then, we were stuck with their service for another year, use it or not, morally right or wrong Lesson we learned next time around is don't sign contracts with long cancellation notice periods.

Roo · Oct 28th, 2009, 02:13 PM

Maybe there's a happy medium. Have you tried to negotiate at all? Do a mea culpa and see if there is some wiggle room on the fees? That may be the best solution for everyone.

Oct 28th, 2009, 01:16 PM	#31
Roo au courant Joined: Apr 2006 Location: Rue Roo Posts: 12,716	Ok, I can see all the points here about contracts, fees, etc. But what a Judge will look at is what is reasonable. If the photographer wants to assess various fees after all this time, then I have a feeling a Judge will agree that it's their perogative to do so. If you go to court and lose, it may end up costing you way more than the $1500, kwim?
	__________________ When I started counting my blessings, my whole life turned around. --Willie Nelson

Oct 28th, 2009, 01:20 PM	#32
olive519 OP Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,665	Had anyone in the studio told there was a time frame, an expiration date, etc I would have acted quicker but don't do well without deadlines. And everytime I called the office, her partner would tell me "oh it'd no big deal, people are still calling me from '99"...so he gave me a false sense of security in no way did I say this did not drag on. And for the person that indicated I was a deadbeat, how? They were paid for something they have not yet delivered and I'm a deadbeat, for what, paying them in advance?
olive519 OP Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,665	__________________ Do you like cheese as much as I do? Check out a local (to me) born again farmer and her cheese makin' goats. She hung up her Manolos for wellies and a shovel... http://www.rainbeauridge.com/cms/content/view/496/291/

Oct 28th, 2009, 01:37 PM	#35
olive519 OP Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,665	Domlee, I hear all your points above. My only objection is comparing a contract to an old takeout menu, not really the same thing.
olive519 OP Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,665	__________________ Do you like cheese as much as I do? Check out a local (to me) born again farmer and her cheese makin' goats. She hung up her Manolos for wellies and a shovel... http://www.rainbeauridge.com/cms/content/view/496/291/

Oct 28th, 2009, 01:38 PM	#36
ilovepinkhearts team edward. always. Joined: Dec 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 4,401	ok, then if you paid for her services and that INCLUDED the album of 20 pictures and there is no time frame on the signed contract then she is to deliver them with the fee that was stated for waiting so long. if there is no clause about the price going up and fees for having to switch media. she would just have to take the negatives that you request and then get those developed or do them herself. even if she was using digital she would still have to have them printed. so either way it goes from the camera to paper, whether it's digital or film. **maybe she should have a time limit clause on her contract so that way she wont have to deal with issues like this if she doesn't want to produce what was paid for, but she didn't. yes it may be a pita to now find those negatives and print them but a signed contract is a signed contract and her services were already paid for...so when there is no time limit and no other fees stated then i don't think she can stick you with those fees unless there is somewhere stated that fees will apply and can be assessed by her and how she deems fit.
	__________________ Please educate yourself about pancreatic cancer, and then share that knowledge with a loved one. http://www.pancan.org i will lose the weight...1 lb at a time!! i CAN do it! i'm not sure how many lbs to go - skinny jeans here i come!! Last edited by ilovepinkhearts; Oct 28th, 2009 at 01:44 PM. Reason: **

Oct 28th, 2009, 01:41 PM	#38
olive519 OP Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,665	Btw, I don't post on here to get a bunch of "yes men" responses. If someone points out flaws in my viewpoint, then I may change my perspective. Like I said, I am willing to work something out, without being taken to the cleaners.
olive519 OP Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,665	__________________ Do you like cheese as much as I do? Check out a local (to me) born again farmer and her cheese makin' goats. She hung up her Manolos for wellies and a shovel... http://www.rainbeauridge.com/cms/content/view/496/291/

Oct 28th, 2009, 01:31 PM	#34
domlee Member Joined: Jan 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 956	In the end... The $275 is going to be pretty close to the basic costs of the small claims court filing fees. So to make LIFE simpler for yourself...pay the photog for the negatives and get it done elsewhere. Because the outcome from the court is going to be either: 1) You pay the $1500+ fee and get an album (from a now pissed off photog) which may lead to a crappy looking album. 2) You pay $275 and get the negative that allows you to produce an album anywhere. Technology has changed. You can't deny that. But what you're trying to do is effectively leave the photog hanging (because you were grossly negligent) with the film development costs...which is clearly becoming more expensive as time goes on. That is UNFAIR and UNETHICAL on your part. Make all the excuses you want, but you were grossly negligent. That is like finding an old menu for a take-out restaurant and demanding they honor their old price because you have the old menu. Or because you have a classic car, you're demanding to pay for parts and gas on the old prices, not current replacement prices. The supply for your product (as an entire industry) has shrunk. Sorry, but I still side w/ the photog. And you'll notice that the majority of posters here side w/ the photog for a reason.

Oct 28th, 2009, 01:59 PM	#42
plain jane doe Member Joined: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,577	I think OP is right to argue. Yeah, she should have done it earlier, but she has a contract. By right I mean from a business-is-business standpoint; I'm not going to bother with whether she is or is not "morally" right or whether this is a moral issue. I understand that working for yourself in a creative field can be difficult, but I don't agree with the argument of nobody understands how hard this that and the other is, so give me special treatment. Every job has difficult aspects. People choose their jobs, choose a degree of creativity and autonomy over, say, corporate insulation and security. That doesn't mean they are agreeing to be treated like shit, but there is a different set of problems and trade-offs that they are accepting as part of that choice. I have a dear friend who is starting out as a freelance designer. I love her, I do not want to see her screwed over, I get angry at people who do or try to screw her over, and yes, and I think those people are shitty. But if a client takes advantage of her because of a lack of proper provisions in a contract she herself has written, then there is nothing she can do except learn from that lesson when she writes the next contract. I would not advise her at that point to try to change her terms on the client or make legal claims because the language she used did not reflect all her assumptions.
plain jane doe Member Joined: Aug 2008 Posts: 1,577

Oct 28th, 2009, 02:06 PM	#43
ilovepinkhearts team edward. always. Joined: Dec 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 4,401	^^exactly! if it's on a signed piece of paper and if it has no clauses about late ordering then the photog is required to do the job as promised...and she is the one that provided the contract, so she is legally bound to it. **and a side thought, since the fee is only $25 less than the price for all the negatives i say get all the negatives and ask for the album you already technically paid for and get some pics developed. take the film to walmart or a drug store and get them printed...pretty cheap and then slowly do your album :)
	__________________ Please educate yourself about pancreatic cancer, and then share that knowledge with a loved one. http://www.pancan.org i will lose the weight...1 lb at a time!! i CAN do it! i'm not sure how many lbs to go - skinny jeans here i come!! Last edited by ilovepinkhearts; Oct 28th, 2009 at 02:11 PM. Reason: **

Oct 28th, 2009, 02:08 PM	#44
olive519 OP Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,665	Thanks plain jane doe, I don't want to screw them but I also don't want to be screwed. Contracts exist for a reason, and contracts don't have "in the spirit of" feelings if she had told me she needed a fee to get the prints out of storage and some extra time that I would have paid and agreed to. If you write an open ended contract, it's still open ended. I worked with data contracts for a long time, and when we didn't notify a vendor of cancellation by the specified time, well then, we were stuck with their service for another year, use it or not, morally right or wrong Lesson we learned next time around is don't sign contracts with long cancellation notice periods.
olive519 OP Member Joined: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,665	__________________ Do you like cheese as much as I do? Check out a local (to me) born again farmer and her cheese makin' goats. She hung up her Manolos for wellies and a shovel... http://www.rainbeauridge.com/cms/content/view/496/291/

Oct 28th, 2009, 02:13 PM	#45
Roo au courant Joined: Apr 2006 Location: Rue Roo Posts: 12,716	Maybe there's a happy medium. Have you tried to negotiate at all? Do a mea culpa and see if there is some wiggle room on the fees? That may be the best solution for everyone.
	__________________ When I started counting my blessings, my whole life turned around. --Willie Nelson

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