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Shill bidding & other Auction discussions

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Jun 14, 2012, 8:09pm   #46
h
hotshot
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With all due respect, I have to again disagree here...

There are many of us who do have market knowledge with regard to pricing..

If the price is what & where it should be, there is no reason not to bid on

a private auction... for certain high end items many of us do understand that

this is the way it goes.. and we always have the option of not bidding!!

I don't think anyone "got" me or for that matter others that are certainly

knowledgeable especially in the high end luxury item market...
Jun 14, 2012, 8:29pm   #47
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PhilipCohen
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Respectfully, this has nothing to do with yours or anyone else’s knowledge of market prices, it has to do with allowing you to have some opportunity to protect yourself from shill bidding. If there was a known “market” price, sellers would sell at that price BIN. Auctions are there to establish or re-establish such a market price, not to make a sale at any price, with the aid of shill bidding. But, regardless, if you feel comfortable buying on private auctions, so be it …
Jun 20, 2012, 6:46pm   #48
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tutushopper
♥ Lambskin Lover ♥
I just saw a listing where the seller got negative feedback for shilling, looked at the auction in question, and yep, looks like the feedback was well deserved. The seller didn't counter the feedback at all, but now all of their auctions are private. Hmmmmmmmmmm much?
Jun 20, 2012, 8:19pm   #49
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PhilipCohen
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Originally Posted by tutushopper
I just saw a listing where the seller got negative feedback for shilling, looked at the auction in question, and yep, looks like the feedback was well deserved. The seller didn't counter the feedback at all, but now all of their auctions are private. Hmmmmmmmmmm much?
And some people say that they are happy to bid on such "private" auctions. "Private" auctions were never intended other than as a blatant eBay tool devised principally for the use of shill-bidding sellers, or at least those who are brazen enough to use it; such auctions simply scream: "come in, you naive sucker; I am going to make you pay the most you are prepared to pay" and if that does not work, I'll then send you a SCO ...
Jun 20, 2012, 9:42pm   #50
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jellyv
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A private-bidder listing here or there can be suspect, or many can, but it is not the case uniformly, no matter how much you want it to be.

And to your insistence that those who don't agree on this matter are naive and out to get themselves fleeced: just drama, not reality.
Last edited Jun 20, 2012 at 9:51pm.
Jun 20, 2012, 10:09pm   #51
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littlerock
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Originally Posted by jellyv
A private-bidder listing here or there can be suspect, or many can, but it is not the case uniformly, no matter how much you want it to be.


The thing is, once you leave feedback your items are traced back to you, in both directions. *Some* sellers and buyers genuinely want to keep that record private for privacy reasons only. I am not a fan of private bidding or listings but I know sellers who do it solely for privacy reasons. Legit sellers with BIN prices...
Jun 21, 2012, 12:14am   #52
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PhilipCohen
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Originally Posted by littlerock


The thing is, once you leave feedback your items are traced back to you, in both directions. *Some* sellers and buyers genuinely want to keep that record private for privacy reasons only. I am not a fan of private bidding or listings but I know sellers who do it solely for privacy reasons. Legit sellers with BIN prices...
Buyers may choose to have "private" feedback if they wish; it’s the seller that may choose to run a "private" auction, not the bidders, and the seller is not hidden by such choice of privacy, indeed, as a seller you can’t even have private feedback.

Regardless, who would want to go to all the trouble to try and track down an otherwise untraceable, non-unique bidding ID by spending days watching for a particular auction number to appear in a seller’s feedback listing and, even then, still finish up with only a unique eBay pseudonym, which you may or may not know?—except when you have a very good reason for doing so, like trying to track down ********’s anonymous shills.

I rest my case on tutushopper’s example given above. I believe it is indeed naïve to think that a “private” auction is not more likely than not being used as a hide for shill bidding.

If eBay was indeed protecting us from such shill bidding with “sophisticated” and “proactive” systems, as they claim, then otherwise may be the case; but it is demonstrable that eBay’s claim of having such systems to control shill bidding is false and, notwithstanding that such a false claim is effectively a fraud, by eBay, upon buyers, you have absolutely no protection from shill bidding.

But, if you believe that eBay is protecting you, as they claim, from shill bidding fraud, or you are simply happy to keep bidding up to the maximum you are prepared to pay, then by all means carry on bidding to win on “private” auctions …

Me, I would not touch a “private” auction with a forty foot pole …

BIN: I’ve never noticed a “private” BIN listing. BIN sales are in effect private in that there is no way of immediately knowing anything about who buys a BIN/BO item. There is nothing deceptive about such privacy; you buy or you don’t buy. And if the buyer has private feedback, all is kept private, I think. But, seriously, why would anyone anyway want to look up a BIN item sale to see who did buy the item when if could be anyone of, how many registered eBayer’s are there? Millions? I’m as a loss on that one …
Jun 21, 2012, 12:42am   #53
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tutushopper
♥ Lambskin Lover ♥
Originally Posted by tutushopper
I just saw a listing where the seller got negative feedback for shilling, looked at the auction in question, and yep, looks like the feedback was well deserved. The seller didn't counter the feedback at all, but now all of their auctions are private. Hmmmmmmmmmm much?
The seller had open auctions until they were given negative feedback by a buyer who realized she had bid against the seller using a shill bidding account. When I looked at the auction, I could see how and why she came to that conclusion, and why the negative was well deserved. The seller did not refute the feedback, they instead made all of their subsequent and ongoing auctions private, even those that were initially not private. I know because I was watching one of them.

The buyer's feedback is still (at this time anyway) visible, including that big red mark for shill bidding up their own auction, peer the feedback given and not contested.

Originally Posted by PhilipCohen
it’s the seller that may choose to run a "private" auction, not the bidders, and the seller is not hidden by such choice of privacy, indeed, as a seller you can’t even have private feedback.

I rest my case on tutushopper’s example given above. I believe it is indeed naïve to think that a “private” auction is not more likely than not being used as a hide for shill bidding.

it is demonstrable that eBay’s claim of having such systems to control shill bidding is false and, notwithstanding that such a false claim is effectively a fraud, by eBay, upon buyers, you have absolutely no protection from shill bidding.
Jun 21, 2012, 8:27am   #54
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lizmil
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Originally Posted by tutushopper
The seller had open auctions until they were given negative feedback by a buyer who realized she had bid against the seller using a shill bidding account. When I looked at the auction, I could see how and why she came to that conclusion, and why the negative was well deserved. The seller did not refute the feedback, they instead made all of their subsequent and ongoing auctions private, even those that were initially not private. I know because I was watching one of them.

The buyer's feedback is still (at this time anyway) visible, including that big red mark for shill bidding up their own auction, peer the feedback given and not contested.

Totally lost you on this comment--- did you mean seller's feedback is visible on the buyer site (at the end where I bolded it)?
Jun 21, 2012, 8:49am   #55
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PhilipCohen
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Originally Posted by lizmil
Totally lost you on this comment--- did you mean seller's feedback is visible on the buyer site (at the end where I bolded it)?
I think it means what it says, ie, the feedback left by the buyer (which appears in the seller's feedback listing); after all, you can not find out anything about the buyer without looking first at the seller's feedback listing ...
Jun 21, 2012, 12:17pm   #56
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.:Sprigged:.
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Private auctions have been used by high-end auction houses for decades. It is perfectly legitimate.

Some people don't want others to know how they spend their money. There is nothing wrong with that. Many friends and family know my Ebay ID since I have had it for ages. If I bought, say a Croc Birkin for a $75,000 to hide in my basement/wear when they are not around after secretly winning the lottery, I would be able to do so without reveling my new-found financial status.
Jun 21, 2012, 2:23pm   #57
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Since I'm new in here I just wanted to ask you guys if we are allowed to point out specific eBay sellers who might be shill bidding. I'm watching an auction and it seems a mysterious 0 feedback ebayer is bidding on several of her auctions. Can I point the seller out here or is that a violation?
Jun 21, 2012, 2:48pm   #58
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tutushopper
♥ Lambskin Lover ♥
Originally Posted by lizmil
Totally lost you on this comment--- did you mean seller's feedback is visible on the buyer site (at the end where I bolded it)?
Oops, yes, the seller's feedback, that the buyer left for the seller. This seller did not ever have private listings before, and since that comment, all of their listings are now private. They are not for "sensitive" items nor are they for high value items. The seller just switched over to having private auctions since the buyer of that one item left the comment about having to buy over the seller's own shilling.

When I looked at that auction, I could see what she was talking about, as it was a low feedback "buyer" bidding 100% with that seller.

The seller did not refute the negative comment, but just made all of his auction listings private.

ETA: Yes, Philip, that was what I was saying, how I saw the feedback.
Jun 21, 2012, 4:28pm   #59
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PhilipCohen
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Those of you that are not already aware, should understand that even the high end auction houses are quite happy to shill bid you up to at least the reserve on any item, if not even past the maximum you are prepared to pay (if they are selling their own stuff, undisclosed, of course); for some funny reason many auctioneers simply don't consider such activity to be really criminal, but just the traditional way of doing business.

It is indeed naïve to presume otherwise of any auctioneer because you just don’t know.

It seems to many people, even the wealthy and the prominent, “fraud” is OK (prominent examples abound in the US), as long as they don’t get caught. Which brings to mind one situation that was exposed in Australia many years ago at a GM new car dealership named Tony Packard Holden; the salesman would leave the “deal” room so that prospective buyers (eg, husband and wife) could have a discussion between themselves as to just how much they could afford; the dealer had bugged this office and the salesman could listen in to the conversation so that he knew what to offer to make the sale and maximize his profit on the deal. Needless to say, one day someone blew the whistle on this activity. The court decided that that gave Tony a decidedly “unfair advantage” and I think he actually spent some time as a guest of the government over the matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Packard

What then is the difference between this car dealer’s actions—after all he was only trying to ascertain the absolute maximum the potential buyers were prepared to pay—and the making of undisclosed vendor bids on an auction, the only purpose of which are to give potential buyers the impression that there is other genuine interest in the item, when there may well not be any, and to artificially increase the selling price?

Respectfully, it is indeed naïve to assume that commercial operators are scrupulous in such circumstances; indeed, unscrupulous auctioneers, including eBay, rely heavily on such naivety …
Jun 21, 2012, 5:15pm   #60
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jellyv
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I'm fairly sure that many here have done business safely and honestly on eBay for many years, perhaps longer than you; years buying at other auction sites wisely; have deeply considered our purchasing experiences and behavior; are not naive; and have a different and compelling (and I would say, correct) understanding of the subject of private bidding.


I can see that you will not take delivery of this message, so that's all I need to post on this matter.
Last edited Jun 21, 2012 at 5:25pm.
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