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Shill bidding & other Auction discussions

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Jun 12, 2012, 7:17pm   #31
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PhilipCohen
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Originally Posted by PhilipCohen
Has anyone yet noticed that eBay has, of early June, stopped displaying unsold items on sellers’ “Completed listings” pages (for all types of sales).

At last, the US economy has turned the corner, according to eBay, anyway. Harrah! eBay and everybody selling thereon are now going great guns! Absolutely everything is now selling! Everyone who lists on eBay now has a 100% success rate!

From now on everything that is listed on eBay will appear to sell—even if it doesn’t. There will be no more of those unsightly and embarrassing oceans of “red” on sellers’ “completed listing” pages (of course there may not be many sold items listed either); these oceans will now only appear in the soothing (and deceptive) “green” colour of success.

eBay is making the business of buying on eBay more and more opaque by the minute. There is only one reason for such opacity and that is to deceive consumers. In my humble opinion, this latest change is simply another indication of the depths that the unscrupulous eBay will go to to deceive its consumers in the pursuit of protecting its atrophying bottom line; it’s unethical at the least; and I invite readers to again read the definition of fraud.

US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter 63, §1343, "Fraud by wire, radio, or television":
“Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. …”
Regardless, when you deal with eBay (and many of its merchants) you are dealing with a most unscrupulous entity; you should always keep a very firm grip on your wallet/purse whenever you are logged on.
My mistake. I generalized and that was wrong (now I’m in for it); I’ll have to apologise to eBay, sort of. I was watching an item on the below seller; it finished and did not appear in the "Completed listings".

Current (31 more items finishing today) : http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/kerrmulle...=p3911.c0.m283

Completed (16 items): http://www.ebay.com.au/csc/kerrmulle...=p3911.c0.m283

These are BIN/BO items; it is apparently the case that if unsold they simply roll over and start again and never show as unsold; they only appear in the completed list if and when they are sold, it seems.
Last edited Jun 12, 2012 at 7:38pm.
Jun 12, 2012, 8:11pm   #32
A
AuntieMame
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Originally Posted by PhilipCohen
My mistake. I generalized and that was wrong (now I’m in for it); I’ll have to apologise to eBay, sort of. I was watching an item on the below seller; it finished and did not appear in the "Completed listings".

Current (31 more items finishing today) : http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/kerrmulle...=p3911.c0.m283

Completed (16 items): http://www.ebay.com.au/csc/kerrmulle...=p3911.c0.m283

These are BIN/BO items; it is apparently the case that if unsold they simply roll over and start again and never show as unsold; they only appear in the completed list if and when they are sold, it seems.
That's ok. Everyone makes mistakes, especially when one is looking for something specific.

And it's a good lesson that one shouldn't believe everyone someone says just because they share the same opinion about something.
Jun 12, 2012, 8:38pm   #33
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tutushopper
♥ Lambskin Lover ♥
Originally Posted by PhilipCohen
My mistake. I generalized and that was wrong (now I’m in for it); I’ll have to apologise to eBay, sort of. I was watching an item on the below seller; it finished and did not appear in the "Completed listings".

Current (31 more items finishing today) : http://www.ebay.com.au/sch/kerrmulle...=p3911.c0.m283

Completed (16 items): http://www.ebay.com.au/csc/kerrmulle...=p3911.c0.m283

These are BIN/BO items; it is apparently the case that if unsold they simply roll over and start again and never show as unsold; they only appear in the completed list if and when they are sold, it seems.
Thanks for clearing this up, Philip. You are ever the watchdog, and I for one do appreciate it.
Jun 14, 2012, 2:59am   #34
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PhilipCohen
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I have not seen a seller-elected "private listing" for a while; here is one for a piece of flat art; we certainly have absolutely no way of analyzing anything about the bidders; therefore, what other purpose can this "private listing" serve other than to obscure shill bidding?

Maybe ***** could make some use of this special seller-selected, eBay shill bidding device ...

But, you really do have to wonder what was in the mind of the turkeys at eBay when they introduced this outrageously opaque device for unscrupulous sellers. Fortunately, only the most brazen choose to use it. But, never fear, if they are using such device to obscure shill bidding, eBay's “sophisticated” and “proactive” systems will detect it—LOL

http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAP...m=160816210233
Jun 14, 2012, 3:33am   #35
tutushopper's Avatar
tutushopper
♥ Lambskin Lover ♥
Originally Posted by PhilipCohen
I have not seen a seller-elected "private listing" for a while; here is one for a piece of flat art; we certainly have absolutely no way of analyzing anything about the bidders; therefore, what other purpose can this "private listing" serve other than to obscure shill bidding?

Maybe ***** could make some use of this special seller-selected, eBay shill bidding device ...

But, you really do have to wonder what was in the mind of the turkeys at eBay when they introduced this outrageously opaque device for unscrupulous sellers. Fortunately, only the most brazen choose to use it. But, never fear, if they are using such device to obscure shill bidding, eBay's “sophisticated” and “proactive” systems will detect it—LOL

http://offer.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAP...m=160816210233
That is one scary auction with everyone private. You have absolutely no idea if you are bidding against shill bidders or not. I really hope this kind of auction doesn't become popular; and one would wonder what they are trying to hide; it's not as if it's something illicit or such.
Jun 14, 2012, 9:58am   #36
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PhilipCohen
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Originally Posted by tutushopper
That is one scary auction with everyone private. You have absolutely no idea if you are bidding against shill bidders or not. I really hope this kind of auction doesn't become popular; and one would wonder what they are trying to hide; it's not as if it's something illicit or such.
Bear in mind that the bidding IDs are private not at the choice of the bidders but at the choice of the seller; this outrageous seller-selected opacity has been around since before bidding IDs were further anonymised and was supposedly introduced for sellers of porn and the like so that anyone buying from them could not be identified; at least that's what eBay supposedly said at the time—LOL. Of course, I believe absolutely nothing that eBay says, at any time. I always say to myself, what's the real reason? Where is the benefit to eBay?
Jun 14, 2012, 4:24pm   #37
tutushopper's Avatar
tutushopper
♥ Lambskin Lover ♥
Originally Posted by PhilipCohen
Bear in mind that the bidding IDs are private not at the choice of the bidders but at the choice of the seller; this outrageous seller-selected opacity has been around since before bidding IDs were further anonymised and was supposedly introduced for sellers of porn and the like so that anyone buying from them could not be identified; at least that's what eBay supposedly said at the time—LOL. Of course, I believe absolutely nothing that eBay says, at any time. I always say to myself, what's the real reason? Where is the benefit to eBay?
That's why I see this as so scary; this is bidding on art, not anything such as porn. Very scary indeed if this is adopted more often by regular auctions for things other than "private" items.
Jun 14, 2012, 4:30pm   #38
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jellyv
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Originally Posted by PhilipCohen
I always say to myself, what's the real reason? Where is the benefit to eBay?
Sellers don't choose it as a benefit to eBay but to their customers. And it's been a preferred way of doing things in various categories, with no ill intentions. Some sellers and buyers would rather not expose their bidding to competitors or others who could care about their purchases.

Not everything is done for a nefarious reason, and not every seller has a clue that others see their practices as nefarious.
Jun 14, 2012, 4:42pm   #39
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carlpsmom
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Wouldn't surprise me if EBay eventually makes all of them private. Then, no need for the hidden bidder IDs.
Jun 14, 2012, 4:53pm   #40
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PhilipCohen
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Originally Posted by jellyv
Sellers don't choose it as a benefit to eBay but to their customers. And it's been a preferred way of doing things in various categories, with no ill intentions. Some sellers and buyers would rather not expose their bidding to competitors or others who could care about their purchases.

Not everything is done for a nefarious reason, and not every seller has a clue that others see their practices as nefarious.
Unless I am missing something, bidding IDs are already utterly anonymous ...

Are you seriously suggesting that this form of seller-selected "private" bidding, where there is no way to ascertain if a bidder is bidding on every auction of a particular seller (indicating obvious shill bidding), is appropriate?

Regardless, I disagree, eBay does nothing without there being a benefit to them.
Jun 14, 2012, 5:35pm   #41
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jellyv
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Originally Posted by PhilipCohen
Unless I am missing something, bidding IDs are already utterly anonymous ...

Are you seriously suggesting that this form of seller-selected "private" bidding, where there is no way to ascertain if a bidder is bidding on every auction of a particular seller (indicating obvious shill bidding), is appropriate?

Regardless, I disagree, eBay does nothing without there being a benefit to them.
1. Re the anonymization versus private identity: not so "utterly." It is still possible to click on a bidder and notice the feedback number and put two and two together to guess an identity when you've been following fellow bidders for a long time. I do this easily in a certain area of collecting.

2. Can you see that it is the seller, not eBay, who creates listings with protected identities? And therefore it is the seller doing something for their own reason, not eBay doing it?

3. Yes, there are sellers of high-end items who have always listed with private bidders. See the Hermes forum.
Jun 14, 2012, 5:58pm   #42
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PhilipCohen
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Originally Posted by jellyv
1. Re the anonymization versus private identity: not so "utterly." It is still possible to click on a bidder and notice the feedback number and put two and two together to guess an identity when you've been following fellow bidders for a long time. I do this easily in a certain area of collecting.

2. Can you see that it is the seller, not eBay, who creates listings with protected identities? And therefore it is the seller doing something for their own reason, not eBay doing it?

3. Yes, there are sellers of high-end items who have always listed with private bidders. See the Hermes forum.
And you have bid on one of these "private" auctions? If so, you are a very trusting person.

The seller-selected "private" auction serves no other purpose other than to utterly obscure shill bidding; if you think otherwise then, by all means you should continue buying via such auctions ...
Jun 14, 2012, 6:17pm   #43
h
hotshot
Member
^ I have to disagree here.. for certain high end items many buyers do prefer being
private be it Hermes or something else... and yes, in the past have purchased from
"private auctions"...am familiar enough to have known what I was buying & the
price that should have been paid for such an item...
Jun 14, 2012, 6:56pm   #44
P
Peekotin
Account Deactivated
^^i'm afraid they got you there Mr.Cohen, I prefer to bid privately especially on high end luxury items. It's not a one size fits all scenario that you seem to be trying to convince everyone of.
Jun 14, 2012, 7:25pm   #45
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PhilipCohen
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Originally Posted by Peekotin
^^i'm afraid they got you there Mr.Cohen, I prefer to bid privately especially on high end luxury items. It's not a one size fits all scenario that you seem to be trying to convince everyone of.
I'm sorry, but I don't think that they have "got" me. Any genuine bidder that bids on and wins such a "private" auction is undoubtedly the one being "got".

Regardless, is anyone actually saying that they have contacted a seller and told them that they prefer to bid on "private" auctions, or are these "private" auctions that you have bid on simply at the instigation of the seller? If it is at the instigation only of the seller, I have no doubt that, on the balance of probability, you are paying more than you would otherwise, even if you have paid no more than you were prepared to pay.
Last edited Jun 14, 2012 at 7:59pm.
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