Originally Posted by skislope15

You can check auctionbytes.com and do a search and you'll find more info of why it was removed

VERY interesting!

I stick with the fact that shill bidding is a federal crime. If you feel differently then you can argue your case with the Computer Science Department- University of Illinois/Chicago, Computer and Information Science Department - University of Massachusetts/Dartmouth, Mathematics Statistics and Computer Science Department - University of Illinois/Chicago, all of whom claim it is a federal offense:
"While sellers might realize that shill bidding is immoral, most sellers may not realize that shilling behavior is in fact a crime, which is governed by Title 18 Section 1343 of United States Code (Brill et al. 1998)." Here's a link to the source material:

http://www.cis.umassd.edu/~hxu/Papers/UMD/ECRA-2011.pdf

Furthermore, ebay itself states that shill bidding is a federal crime: http://ebay.about.com/od/glossaryofe...g/gl_shill.htm

If you still insist that shill bidding is not a federal crime then you've pretty much exonerated edropoff because most states do not have any laws regarding shill bidding (they typically defer to the above referenced law, Title 18 Section 1343 of U.S. Code). It would appear that edropoff's only "crime" then would be that of possibly violating some ebay rule, and ebay has already stated in writing that no violation has taken place.

Originally Posted by caramel15

Can't believe edropoff is taking it this far. So what is she going to do - sue and out anyone who says something she doesn't like?? I would never purchase anything from them.

Well I'd be pretty pissed off if a competitor spread mistruths about my company. I've never purchased from edropoff (live in Europe) but unless someone is 100% sure of the truth then I think they should keep their mouth shut. As much as people say that BB presented it as her opinion, the fact that so many people said that they wouldn't shop at edropoff after the previous thread even though it was not proven to be true (yet?), would make me want to do something about it if it was my business. I can totally understand why she's taking it this far.

Originally Posted by chicabook

ebay has already stated in writing that no violation has taken place.

If memory serves me correctly, edropoff's post about eBays "investigation" included an alleged email from some yahoo at eBay stating eBay had performed an intensive or thorough (insert actual synonym used) investigation and found no evidence of shill bidding.

HOWEVER, I also believe someone else noted the time between edropoff's contact with eBay and their response was somewhere around 6 hours. In my opinion, I'm calling dinosaur poop on any thorough, exhaustive, complete, intense, "investigation" that was requested, assigned, and completed within 6 hours (or less).

It simply isn't logistically possible to investigate the sheer number of auctions, current and closed, for that seller with ANY degree of accuracy in even a few DAYS.

eBay's software is a joke and is easily circumvented by savvy sellers anyway. (Witness the one who imbeds illegal payment policies into a jpeg so eBay's searches won't find it! - that was uncovered by someone on this forum too)

The more I read about eBay fraud, the happier I am to never look at that site again.

Originally Posted by chooey

Well I'd be pretty pissed off if a competitor spread mistruths about my company. I've never purchased from edropoff (live in Europe) but unless someone is 100% sure of the truth then I think they should keep their mouth shut. As much as people say that BB presented it as her opinion, the fact that so many people said that they wouldn't shop at edropoff after the previous thread even though it was not proven to be true (yet?), would make me want to do something about it if it was my business. I can totally understand why she's taking it this far.

Since BB's Bonz ID was made available, I looked at her listings because I was curious about her being an alleged competitor. I did not closely examine each and every listing, but enough that my impression is that she is NOT a competitor of edropoff. BB's stuff seems to be predominantly new, NWT, NIB, etc. I got the impression that she buys close-outs, end of season sales, etc.. In other words, in bulk at super prices for resale. I definitely did not get the impression she is a drop off consigner. In my opinion, edropoff is calling her a competitor just because she is an online seller! She doesn't even sell on eBay either.

What you're saying, if I understand your post, is that based on publicly available information, no one should be permitted to express their opinion.
Because, really, there is NO "100% sure of the truth" that can be proven on the Internet. That's why court dockets are full - supposedly sorting out the truth.

I am one who said I would never shop at edropoff. I noticed what appeared to be bidding impropriety a while ago, long before this thread, and made a mental note never to look at their auctions. All BB did was post what was publicly available on eBay, with many examples, and expressed her opinion. I did my own thinking, and based on many examples and my prior impression, I agreed with BB's opinion.

This is a witch hunt all right, just not the the direction you think. I am perfectly capable of forming my own opinion based on publicly available information.

For anyone to suggest, it was BB's opinion on the matter, not the actual eBay data posted or reader experience or other Internet data, is to say forum members are a group of mindless morons incapable of independent thought.

The ramifications of this case are huge for forums everywhere. This kind of lawsuit, in my opinion, is bullying and will stifle free speech on the Internet.

Edited to add: I forgot to say that the tone. content, and perceived intent of edropoff's posts here on the forum also played a part in my negative impression of them as a seller.

Originally Posted by lilarose

since bb's bonz id was made available, i looked at her listings because i was curious about her being an alleged competitor. I did not closely examine each and every listing, but enough that my impression is that she is not a competitor of edropoff. Bb's stuff seems to be predominantly new, nwt, nib, etc. I got the impression that she buys close-outs, end of season sales, etc.. In other words, in bulk at super prices for resale. I definitely did not get the impression she is a drop off consigner. in my opinion, edropoff is calling her a competitor just because she is an online seller! She doesn't even sell on ebay either. What you're saying, if i understand your post, is that based on publicly available information, no one should be permitted to express their opinion. Because, really, there is no "100% sure of the truth" that can be proven on the internet. That's why court dockets are full - supposedly sorting out the truth. I am one who said i would never shop at edropoff. I noticed what appeared to be bidding impropriety a while ago, long before this thread, and made a mental note never to look at their auctions. All bb did was post what was publicly available on ebay, with many examples, and expressed her opinion. I did my own thinking, and based on many examples and my prior impression, i agreed with bb's opinion. This is a witch hunt all right, just not the the direction you think. I am perfectly capable of forming my own opinion based on publicly available information. For anyone to suggest, it was bb's opinion on the matter, not the actual ebay data posted or reader experience or other internet data, is to say forum members are a group of mindless morons incapable of independent thought. the ramifications of this case are huge for forums everywhere. This kind of lawsuit, in my opinion, is bullying and will stifle free speech on the internet.

I personally posted an experience that I had with a seller. Not even with specifics, just that I had a less than positive experience and wouldn't personally be dealing with that seller again. I then got a signature required Fed X from that seller threatening me with legal action. The seller made a list of required demands, claiming I'd hurt their business and that I had not upheld the Constitution Of The United States.

Now if that's not bullying I don't know what is. I was crystal clear in the brief two sentence post that it was 'my' experience and that 'I' was not going to deal with that seller again. I stated no specifics because frankly it was nobodies business. And I get threatened with a lawsuit!

I think it's important that we communicate responsibly and from our own experience. I did not accuse the seller of anything that was unproven or tell other people what to do which is an entirely different thing.

Fraud is indeed a felony and if anyone thinks they can sit behind a computer cloaked in anonymity and write anything they want and get away with it, there will be a hard lesson to be learned.

We all should feel safe to share our personal experience in just that context. When you cross the line to insinuate or tell other people what to do, and then use a reason that you think or have decided is true without benefit of not really knowing, then you've crossed a major foul line and the consequences definitely will lie just around the corner.

I have read the 18 page complaint and am responding in kind to the exact allegations in such, since I never saw the initial posts here on tpf.

I think BB presented the evidence she had gotten and it was up to us to make up our minds if we wanted to deal with this seller or not. I decided not to deal with them based on the seller's reaction to the whole thing.. if they had reacted different instead of publishing a C&D letter from the beginning, I would have still considered doing business with them, since the shill bidding was not proved. There are many sellers, and it's my choice to buy from whomever I want.

Originally Posted by audreylita

I personally posted an experience that I had with a seller. Not even with specifics, just that I had a less than positive experience and wouldn't personally be dealing with that seller again. I then got a signature required Fed X from that seller threatening me with legal action. The seller made a list of required demands, claiming I'd hurt their business and that I had not upheld the Constitution Of The United States. Now if that's not bullying I don't know what is. I was crystal clear in the brief two sentence post that it was 'my' experience and that 'I' was not going to deal with that seller again. I stated no specifics because frankly it was nobodies business. And I get threatened with a lawsuit! I think it's important that we communicate responsibly and from our own experience. I did not accuse the seller of anything that was unproven or tell other people what to do which is an entirely different thing. Fraud is indeed a felony and if anyone thinks they can sit behind a computer cloaked in anonymity and write anything they want and get away with it, there will be a hard lesson to be learned. We all should feel safe to share our personal experience in just that context. When you cross the line to insinuate or tell other people what to do, and then use a reason that you think or have decided is true without benefit of not really knowing, then you've crossed a major foul line and the consequences definitely will lie just around the corner. I have read the 18 page complaint and am responding in kind to the exact allegations in such, since I never saw the initial posts here on tpf.

Wow.. I can't believe a seller would do that.

If there is shill bidding taking place at edropoff it needs to stop.. and if an

investigation takes place and the information found is indeed fact correct,

than we will know & draw our own conclusions as to whether we want to continue

buying from them or not...

Originally Posted by Lilarose

Since BB's Bonz ID was made available, I looked at her listings because I was curious about her being an alleged competitor. I did not closely examine each and every listing, but enough that my impression is that she is NOT a competitor of edropoff. BB's stuff seems to be predominantly new, NWT, NIB, etc. I got the impression that she buys close-outs, end of season sales, etc.. In other words, in bulk at super prices for resale. I definitely did not get the impression she is a drop off consigner. In my opinion, edropoff is calling her a competitor just because she is an online seller! She doesn't even sell on eBay either. What you're saying, if I understand your post, is that based on publicly available information, no one should be permitted to express their opinion. Because, really, there is NO "100% sure of the truth" that can be proven on the Internet. That's why court dockets are full - supposedly sorting out the truth. I am one who said I would never shop at edropoff. I noticed what appeared to be bidding impropriety a while ago, long before this thread, and made a mental note never to look at their auctions. All BB did was post what was publicly available on eBay, with many examples, and expressed her opinion. I did my own thinking, and based on many examples and my prior impression, I agreed with BB's opinion. This is a witch hunt all right, just not the the direction you think. I am perfectly capable of forming my own opinion based on publicly available information. For anyone to suggest, it was BB's opinion on the matter, not the actual eBay data posted or reader experience or other Internet data, is to say forum members are a group of mindless morons incapable of independent thought. The ramifications of this case are huge for forums everywhere. This kind of lawsuit, in my opinion, is bullying and will stifle free speech on the Internet. Edited to add: I forgot to say that the tone. content, and perceived intent of edropoff's posts here on the forum also played a part in my negative impression of them as a seller.

I could not have said this any better! I for one, appreciated BB's initial post about this seller. I found the whole thing very interesting and spent about a half an hour looking at current and recently completed auctions from this seller 'Voldermort' aka (s)he who must not be named. I found enough in that short time to make me want to avoid doing business with them. I was only looking at completed auctions that were won by 0 FB bidders that had 100% activity with this seller. I noticed a surprising number of these items were re-listed a short time later. I can only conclude that either this seller has very bad luck with non paying bidders or .... oh, never mind, I don't fancy a lawsuit.

Originally Posted by audreylita

I personally posted an experience that I had with a seller. Not even with specifics, just that I had a less than positive experience and wouldn't personally be dealing with that seller again. I then got a signature required Fed X from that seller threatening me with legal action. The seller made a list of required demands, claiming I'd hurt their business and that I had not upheld the Constitution Of The United States. Now if that's not bullying I don't know what is. I was crystal clear in the brief two sentence post that it was 'my' experience and that 'I' was not going to deal with that seller again. I stated no specifics because frankly it was nobodies business. And I get threatened with a lawsuit! I think it's important that we communicate responsibly and from our own experience. I did not accuse the seller of anything that was unproven or tell other people what to do which is an entirely different thing. Fraud is indeed a felony and if anyone thinks they can sit behind a computer cloaked in anonymity and write anything they want and get away with it, there will be a hard lesson to be learned. We all should feel safe to share our personal experience in just that context. When you cross the line to insinuate or tell other people what to do, and then use a reason that you think or have decided is true without benefit of not really knowing, then you've crossed a major foul line and the consequences definitely will lie just around the corner. I have read the 18 page complaint and am responding in kind to the exact allegations in such, since I never saw the initial posts here on tpf.

wow. Unbelievable. Apparently constitutional rights only applies to this seller? I think this seller has brought more negative publicity to herself than anyone else ever could.

I also think that, cut & paste posts from a website that's sole purpose is to attack posters here and the owners of this website mean nothing and have no validity whatsoever in my mind.

I know I'm not alone in this view.


As for BB being a competitor, everyone can see that is BS. Just because may sell items online doesn't make her a competitor. I have sold items on Craigslist and Ebay - does that make me a competitor? BB chooses not to sell on Ebay - so I fail to see any correlation at all that would make BB a "competitor".

I personally think if you're selling similar items than yes, that would be a competitor. Listen, I've nothing against BB. I've lurked on this part of PF a lot and I always found her very helpful. I do think though that unless she had ebay tell her that 100% schilling was taking place, than she shouldn't have posted that thread. You might think differently. And I don't know what you mean when you're talking about copying/pasting?

Plus Lilarose, I did my own thinking too. I just have a different opinion on the matter.

eBay is not going to tell someone who complains that shilling is taking place.

Originally Posted by chooey

I personally think if you're selling similar items than yes, that would be a competitor. Listen, I've nothing against BB. I've lurked on this part of PF a lot and I always found her very helpful. I do think though that unless she had ebay tell her that 100% schilling was taking place, than she shouldn't have posted that thread. You might think differently. And I don't know what you mean when you're talking about copying/pasting? Plus Lilarose, I did my own thinking too. I just have a different opinion on the matter.

Originally Posted by Lilarose

If memory serves me correctly, edropoff's post about eBays "investigation" included an alleged email from some yahoo at eBay stating eBay had performed an intensive or thorough (insert actual synonym used) investigation and found no evidence of shill bidding. HOWEVER, I also believe someone else noted the time between edropoff's contact with eBay and their response was somewhere around 6 hours. In my opinion, I'm calling dinosaur poop on any thorough, exhaustive, complete, intense, "investigation" that was requested, assigned, and completed within 6 hours (or less). It simply isn't logistically possible to investigate the sheer number of auctions, current and closed, for that seller with ANY degree of accuracy in even a few DAYS. eBay's software is a joke and is easily circumvented by savvy sellers anyway. (Witness the one who imbeds illegal payment policies into a jpeg so eBay's searches won't find it! - that was uncovered by someone on this forum too) The more I read about eBay fraud, the happier I am to never look at that site again.

You do realize that the accusations of shill bidding begun on another forum before being posted here (this by BB's own admission on the thread that is now removed)? Did you ever consider that the seller was alerted to the accusations prior to being posted here and asked ebay to investigate at that time?

Originally Posted by noshoepolish

eBay is not going to tell someone who complains that shilling is taking place.

well then I don't think someone should post a thread about it based on speculation and their opinion. I live in one of the smaller European countries and where I work was had a small segment on one of our national tv companies one night. The traffic to our website increased by a huge amount (over 2k people in the first 2 days) the next couple of weeks and there are only about 4m people in the country. It doesn't seem baffling to me that there might be a huge amount of bidders who might have never bid on ebay prior to seeing what I think is a tv show? Especially with the population size in the US.