Originally Posted by QTbebe

before she files, stop using this paypal account, paypal can not take money from your bank account if there is no funds in your paypal account.

I mentioned this above, but.... There is an issue with that. Well, first of all, she is not filing via Paypal - she is filing via Amex... Er, or was going to file prior to deciding mysteriously to keep the bag. Anyhow, the SOL for all Paypal claims is 45 days - my buyer happened to be 60 days out, and she knows it, hence wanting to file via Amex instead. Anyhow.... Sorry, I feel like I went off on a side tangent there.

The issue is that if someone files a claim or chargeback and you lose, Paypal will debit your account and throw the balance into the red. They can and will pursue you for the balance via collections. Boo.

Originally Posted by jenaywins

How long ago was this, Iris? Because I literally just got off the phone with Paypal this morning. As far as Paypal is concerned at this point in time, they offer zero protection should a buyer win a CC chargeback. They cannot and will not enforce the buyer to return any items in question. Also, as you mention above, you do not know which way the chargeback went so you really do not know whether Paypal "protected" you or not. You do not know what would haev happened had the buyer potentially won her chargeback via her CC company. My question to Paypal was that of worst case scenario - should the buyer win her chargeback, what protection do I have, and what assurance do I have that the item will be returned to me? All this being said, I am no rookie to problematic buyers, unfortunately. I will handle the situation the best I can, I suppose. It's unfortunate, but what can you do, you know? My purpose for starting this thread is to alert sellers to this horrific loophole in Paypal's already FUBAR way of handling things. It's just so sad that buyers hold all the cards at all times.

I believe that it was late summer/early fall of last year. When I spoke with PP and they restored my funds, they said it didn't matter whether or not she'd won her CB because I'd followed all of PP's guidelines and that the transaction was fully eligible for seller protection - so they would cover the amount even if she won.

My situation was for an unauthorized charge and not SNAD, but if she files a CB, PP is going to fight that on your behalf - presumably in a manner similar to how they'd proceed if a buyer filed SNAD through them (within the 45 day time frame). If you can provide a screen capture (or some other evidence) that shows the auction stating that it was for a used item, and her claim is that the item wasn't new, that would likely help PP to fight the claim / the CC to decide against the cardholder.

There certainly is a possibility that it may not turn out that way, but with the buyer having/using the item for such a lengthy period of time, I'd be worried about what she'd send back if you accepted the return. Though I also do understand (and shudder a bit at the thought) that you could be sans item and money.

I didn't know that Paypal could come after you with collections if the account was negative.

This is terrible news, how do people live with their conscience

Originally Posted by jenaywins

She ended up emailing me back a few hours later to tell me she'd be keeping the bag. It's just terrifying that Paypal allows this to go on, among their many other issues...

At least her flip flopping ended well in your favor! What a scare!

...so.many.issues.

She just changed her mind that easily! She files a CB, she files not. Do you trust her not to flip flop again?

Originally Posted by IrisCole

I believe that it was late summer/early fall of last year. When I spoke with PP and they restored my funds, they said it didn't matter whether or not she'd won her CB because I'd followed all of PP's guidelines and that the transaction was fully eligible for seller protection - so they would cover the amount even if she won. My situation was for an unauthorized charge and not SNAD, but if she files a CB, PP is going to fight that on your behalf - presumably in a manner similar to how they'd proceed if a buyer filed SNAD through them (within the 45 day time frame). If you can provide a screen capture (or some other evidence) that shows the auction stating that it was for a used item, and her claim is that the item wasn't new, that would likely help PP to fight the claim / the CC to decide against the cardholder. There certainly is a possibility that it may not turn out that way, but with the buyer having/using the item for such a lengthy period of time, I'd be worried about what she'd send back if you accepted the return. Though I also do understand (and shudder a bit at the thought) that you could be sans item and money.

Right, and I think that is definitely where our two situations differ in Paypal's eyes - SNAD vs. INR / Unauthorized Transaction. The rep I spoke with did mention that Paypal would submit any evidence on my behalf to the CC company, but that if they sided with their customer, there was nothing they would do and they would not get involved with forcing the buyer to actually return the item. Scary, right?

And you are totally right -- for a buyer to have an item for two months.... Well, who knows what may have been sent back? So what do you do? You can either let the buyer file the chargeback, potentially win, and potentially be out the item AND the money, or you can eat it and accept a return, hoping for the best. Either way, it stinks. I know this subforum is absolutely bursting at the seams with horror stories - we all know that Paypal and eBay are both riddled with issues; however, this giant loophole where a seller could be out money and item is honestly news to me and is incredibly troubling. Who honestly thinks that they will receive an email like this two months after the transaction? Certainly not me.

It's funny -- when the buyer purchased the bag, it was to be a gift for her daughter's upcoming graduation. Today, she mentioned it was to be a gift for her daughter's birthday in two days.

Originally Posted by *want it all*

At least her flip flopping ended well in your favor! What a scare! ...so.many.issues.

Originally Posted by soleilbrun

She just changed her mind that easily! She files a CB, she files not. Do you trust her not to flip flop again?

A scare indeed, and I haven't put it out of my mind that I will hear from the buyer again.

Originally Posted by jenaywins

Agreed! I check everything upon arrival regardless of cost, but especially if I pay several thousand dollars for an item! I think she knows how obvious she is being.... Because she just emailed me to let me know she would be "cleaning and keeping the bag." ... But this still does not negate the fact that Paypal has a serious issue here. A chargeback means that buyers can potentially keep your funds and your item.

Just saw this -- GREAT news!!

Originally Posted by iriscole

just saw this -- great news!!

So happy for you, my darling!
Save the emails...after this even AMEX will know she's crazy even if she tries to pull any other shenanigans!!!

Originally Posted by jenaywins

Right, and I think that is definitely where our two situations differ in Paypal's eyes - SNAD vs. INR / Unauthorized Transaction. The rep I spoke with did mention that Paypal would submit any evidence on my behalf to the CC company, but that if they sided with their customer, there was nothing they would do and they would not get involved with forcing the buyer to actually return the item. Scary, right? And you are totally right -- for a buyer to have an item for two months.... Well, who knows what may have been sent back? So what do you do? You can either let the buyer file the chargeback, potentially win, and potentially be out the item AND the money, or you can eat it and accept a return, hoping for the best. Either way, it stinks. I know this subforum is absolutely bursting at the seams with horror stories - we all know that Paypal and eBay are both riddled with issues; however, this giant loophole where a seller could be out money and item is honestly news to me and is incredibly troubling. Who honestly thinks that they will receive an email like this two months after the transaction? Certainly not me. It's funny -- when the buyer purchased the bag, it was to be a gift for her daughter's upcoming graduation. Today, she mentioned it was to be a gift for her daughter's birthday in two days.

Maybe her daughter didn't graduate

People are stone flippin' nuts these days. I just got off the phone with ebay about a listing and luckily, THIS one worked out.

Had no idea about the ridiculous paypal policies. WOW!

Thank you for posting this.

That's the scariest... when the seller can be out the money & the item by no fault

of their own...

What makes a buyer think that it is perfectly acceptable to have a item for

a period of time & then just decide to file a chargeback???

That is some sense of entitlement & compounded that when a buyer files a

chargeback with their credit card company Paypal doesn't even intervene on

behalf of the seller..just debit their account

And yes this is a big big issue for sellers... paypal doesn't have their backs for sure!!

Just pitching in based on my experience--depending on the CC company, any evidence you submit that Paypal passes on won't matter. In my case, although my auction listed actual measurements of the clothing article I sold, my buyer won the chargeback claiming that the item was "too short". This was because she used an Amex...which I found out after contacting another seller which she had done a chargeback on. The seller told me she had spoken to one more seller that the buyer had done the same thing to. So even Amex didn't care that she was doing this repeatedly, much less Paypal.

She probably specifically threatened you with her Amex card because she's gotten away with this before, or knew she would. Maybe the amount scared her? Or she knew you wouldn't give up easily?

Sellers should definitely be aware of this loophole, as well as the likelihood for it to go through with certain cards. Unfortunately, we as sellers have no idea what credit cards our buyers are using, or who the unscrupulous buyers are.

Originally Posted by jenaywins

Right, and I think that is definitely where our two situations differ in Paypal's eyes - SNAD vs. INR / Unauthorized Transaction. The rep I spoke with did mention that Paypal would submit any evidence on my behalf to the CC company, but that if they sided with their customer, there was nothing they would do and they would not get involved with forcing the buyer to actually return the item. Scary, right? And you are totally right -- for a buyer to have an item for two months.... Well, who knows what may have been sent back? So what do you do? You can either let the buyer file the chargeback, potentially win, and potentially be out the item AND the money, or you can eat it and accept a return, hoping for the best. Either way, it stinks. I know this subforum is absolutely bursting at the seams with horror stories - we all know that Paypal and eBay are both riddled with issues; however, this giant loophole where a seller could be out money and item is honestly news to me and is incredibly troubling. Who honestly thinks that they will receive an email like this two months after the transaction? Certainly not me. It's funny -- when the buyer purchased the bag, it was to be a gift for her daughter's upcoming graduation. Today, she mentioned it was to be a gift for her daughter's birthday in two days.

For sellers Amex could be a nightmare and for buyers its a dream..

And unfortuantely as previously mentioned, PP really doesn't stand

behind sellers from what I can see (except for several reported events that have

been reported on the forum)

There needs to be some type of time limit placed on ebay purchases for

returns... not 30 , 60 or more days than that!!