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Cornflower Blue · Oct 23rd, 2009, 03:33 PM

I really don't understand all this. Other online sites don't seem to have this hassle, I've just paid online by cc (although there was a paypal option as well) for some boots on a UK site and everything went through just fine.
Regardless, I think BE should just bite the bullet and offer paypal maybe as well as offering the moneybookers thing. Apparently moneybookers do cover more countries than paypal.
The only difference between the 2 apart from that, and from what I can glean, is that paypal will cost BE more to operate.

eta: BE must be losing sales over this and imo they have got to make a calculation of revenue lost in sales using moneybookers against revenue lost by using paypal - maybe they already have though...

karmenzsofia · Oct 23rd, 2009, 03:33 PM

[QUOTE=lionlaw;12877920]Jenova, myself, and a couple of the other gals have been hit with this and contacted Jackie. The story on what MB wants changes depending on who you talk to. Jenova was asked for a wire transfer verification I think. They want double-layers from me, but yet another person was able to remove the blocks by just a phone call. It is this inconsistency in procedures that bothers me more than anything (although handing out my personal info to a German co I have never heard of doesn't rank high on the comfort scale either).

Jackie has been in touch with them but she wasnt getting anywhere so I think she is taking it up to higher levels.

BTW, I checked my bank statement and was charged a 3% fee from my bank for using my VISA check card because Moneybookers shows as a German company. Paypal would be cheaper.[/QUOTE]

After I read your post, I checked my Visa account activity and saw the same 3% charge, which was totally unexpected. Not happy about it...

I would not give out the kind of info MB is asking for under any circumstances. Giving my checking account number to PP was a HUGE deal for me, so I can't imagine giving out the private, personal info MB is requesting.

This has been an interesting experience for me kuz this is the first time I buy anything outside the U.S. (except pet supplies that come from Canada). With the exception of MK bags, which I can see IRL and buy at the store, I never buy directly from designers. I usually buy my bags on eBay or Bonz at a significant discount, no MB or PP or bank fees, and low local shipping charges. I took the plunge this time kuz the BE sale was good and I really wanted this bag in that particular color/leather, but otherwise I would think twice given the complications.

lovebags2 · Oct 23rd, 2009, 04:29 PM

I"m not going to sign up for MB (to be honest I never even heard of this company until this morning) and I was clearly informed today I will not have Paypal as an option allowed going forward. Maybe Jackie will change this policy but....

Unless something changes it's no more BE's in my future. What can you do?

lovebags2 · Oct 23rd, 2009, 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by carterazo

Hmmm.... There is certainly a big difference between .4% and 2%..... Which number is right??????? (considering it was provided by the same person)

I''m sorry. I can only tell you the percentage I was provided when I offered to pay the extra fees thru Paypal. Perhaps Jackie had forgotten something to add to my figure? Who knows anymore!

I hope Jackie will make a statement soon and clear some of this confusion.

RaeBelle · Oct 23rd, 2009, 04:44 PM

I had no problems signing up for MoneyBookers. I added my credit card and opted to have the letter sent to me to verify my address. I entered the 6 digit code on the letter into my MoneyBookers account and my limit is apparently 5000 euros. So far they've asked me for less information than PayPal or Google Checkout have.

sgreg · Oct 23rd, 2009, 04:45 PM

If I were to make an educated guess, I'd say both numbers are valid.

0.4% is probably the difference between the amount that Paypal and Moneybookers mark up the currency conversion exchange rate from the mid-market value. Paypal gives a poorer exchange rate, so BE would get less money for the same priced bag after converting the US dollars into pounds.

2% probably covers the fee that Paypal charges BE as the receiving merchant (for Moneybookers, the sender gets charged automatically instead of the merchant so this fee does not need to be accounted for).

Pradameinhofgang · Oct 23rd, 2009, 04:59 PM

Hi, i thought i posted this ealier but now can't see it (Doh!). just for you ladies in UK my DH informes me that if you uase a 3rd party payment service such as moneybookers or paypal you are not covered by the Consumer Credit Act, and it is then up to either Paypal or Moneybookers etc to refund your money at their discretion if you have a problem; i'm sure that wouldn't be a problem with BE as Jackie would intervene in all cases anyway, but just to let you know it's not as straightforward as going to your c card company and getting a refund if you pay with a c card direct if goods are faulty or don't arrive...

BelenEchandia · Oct 23rd, 2009, 05:29 PM

Evening!

I haven't got time to read this thread now - 11pm and I'm flagging - but I will do so tomorrow.

Just to clarify a couple of things though I don't know if they are the questions asked here:

1. MB is our payment provider but BE is still required to adhere by all terms of Visa and MSC and the law.

2. MB is regulated by the FSA, so very secure. The first company to offer e-payments on the internet.

3. We did not intend that people have to sign up for a MB account and most people don't have to. For customers in the US (mostly), they are currently having issues verifiying addresses, for reasons I cannot understand. In order to verify they need a proof of address. They seem to have said "bank statement" to some customers but they don't need your bank details or financial status. They just need a postal statement to show you live there, it can be anything.

4. You pay with a credit card on our website. The only reasons to have a MB account are: 1. they can't verify your address (you still pay with a credit card on our website the same as before once you're verified) or 2. You have a high spend and then the Financial Services Authority says that they can't take more than a set limit per 90 days without an account. They didn't tell me this at the time and had I been aware of it we wouldn't have signed up for it, but it still doesn't compromise your security and you should not need to provide personal details - I don't know what GGA did exactly but perhaps she could share if she hasn't already.

If someone has been charged extra then please email me to tell me why. The only time you would pay extra is with Amex - their fees are extortionate. MSC and Visa don't charge higher % at all. MB itself should not charge you and if they do I will take it up with them.

Finally - I'm quite confused about some correspondence I have had today regarding payment methods, but I realised that perhaps people don't realise how our website works. We have to implement a payment solution for our website, integrating it with our system, all the functions etc. it is not just a case of putting Paypal on the website and off you go, it takes several weeks of developer time, at very expensive rates.

After October 1st 2009 we chose MB because we know them, we trusted them, my business partner has worked with them and because they offer two important things to us:

1. The option to accept more cards, including Amex and Diners
2. The option to build our website so that we can take deposits and automatic final payment and so that you can FINALLY see accurate info in your BEC accounts and pay balances your self, thus eliminating all the workload in sending you links to pay. I should note that for this, you would need to have a MB account, obviously.

We DO and CAN accept paypal as a last resort and this is because it is not integrated on our website, so....1. you cannot track orders, 2. you cannot use it to make BEC payments on site, 3. it is not integrated directly with our bank system on site, 4. we cannot match up orders in paypal/ the site for accounting reasons. Not to mention that they "steal" 0.5% on the exchange rate, thus charging underhand fees above and beyond what you pay and we pay. We do have it on our list to try to implement pp for the future, but we offered it before and it is not very good for merchants. In any case, it's more of an "ebay" solution than a professional website solution.

We can use it and we will use it when we have exhausted options, but we do ask - and thanks a million to all of you who have - that you have a look at the MB site, send them a proof of address, get verified, it just takes a few days. I know some of you have found it a bit labour intensive, whilst others have found it much easier but once those few days are up then all should be easy and smooth. You will be able to do everything you can do now on our site and more.

As for other sites - we've never had a third party payment provider before but almost all sites do. They use protx, or something similar. MB was supposed to undergo a system upgrade which would have meant that this whole process was simplified and limits lifted so accounts were not needed, but it has been delayed.

Some of you know I have been fighting with them on your behalf for 2 weeks, not because I'm worried that they are anything but completely secure, that didn't even enter my mind as there is no way that the UK FSA would regulate a company that wasn't secure. They are strict. But because their processes are cumbersome and difficult to use. I have managed to secure a meeting with the CEO of the company on Tuesday next week and I can update you on whether they can see us as a special case and lift all the fraud stops (their system is basically too sensitive and thinks everyone is fraudulent rather than risk chargebacks (perhaps we can compare it to the banks not wanting to lend money during the credit crisis?)).

If not then I will see what other options we have. Paypal will NOT be our main payments provider for the reasons I have stated. And if we have to implement a new system it will be very expensive - I prefer to invest in new products and leathers and wallets than in a new payment system which may not even be any better. But I will keep you posted.

Also without reading this thread I don't really understand why people have become worried by the process of submitting a proof of address - irritated I understand, I am irritated myself, but I will look through this thread and directly answer any queries tomorrow.

Jackie XOX

sgreg · Oct 23rd, 2009, 05:52 PM

Thanks for the clarification :)

Cornflower Blue · Oct 23rd, 2009, 06:37 PM

It's almost as if you're on the front line of a battle between business models... Speaking for myself, all I want is to be able to buy something without any extra hassle or hoops to go through (and I'm talking generally here).

As for web development, the industry would regard this as 'money for old rope' on a professionally constructed site such as yours. With that time (and money, presumably) estimate that you've been given, I would honestly seek an independent second opinion about the whole thing.

Anyway, thanks for coming on and explaining the situation and I truly hope that it works out well for BE and their customers in the end.

lovebags2 · Oct 23rd, 2009, 07:20 PM

After quite a lot of confusion today I"m happy to see we can still use Paypal.

morebags · Oct 23rd, 2009, 08:57 PM

I may be unique here but when I made my payment through the BE site, it wasn't too onerous. I didn't have to wait for an email or a letter in the mail but I was directed directly to my bank through moneybookers and had to verify a whole heap of information. I'm in Australia though so maybe we work a little differently.

I do have to say that I was a little hesitant to be giving bank type information over the internet, I have a special credit card with a fairly low limit to use for internet transactions just in case...

lanasyogamama · Oct 23rd, 2009, 10:54 PM

Jackie, someone posted that:

"When I googled MB vs Paypal I got "At Moneybookers, card transactions are charged a 1.9 per cent fee, which is quite high. Moneybookers charges its fees directly to the sender of the payment. This is not the case with Paypal that charges its fees to the recipient." It also states there is a 1% sending fee with MB, so that would add up to 2.9%, if the fees are accumulative."

Is this true? Because these costs should be listed up front.

sgreg · Oct 23rd, 2009, 11:02 PM

Yeah, that was me. I also posted a link to the fee page on the moneybookers US site, which mentions the 1% and 1.9% fees. I would love for these to be my misinterpretation of their FAQ page :) Thanks for taking the time to alleviate our concerns.

lovebags2 · Oct 24th, 2009, 08:27 AM

I've been told that there is sensitive information you need to submit to MB re your banking etc... I"d love to know exactly what type of info is required since Jackie mentioned there is only a proof of address needed and can't understand all the fuss. In any event,

I was told yesterday that IF I wanted to order another BEC in the future my only choice would be MB so for whatever reason I'm happy to see Paypal is still an available option should I decide to buy another BE.

Oct 23rd, 2009, 03:33 PM	#31
Cornflower Blue Member Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,329	I really don't understand all this. Other online sites don't seem to have this hassle, I've just paid online by cc (although there was a paypal option as well) for some boots on a UK site and everything went through just fine. Regardless, I think BE should just bite the bullet and offer paypal maybe as well as offering the moneybookers thing. Apparently moneybookers do cover more countries than paypal. The only difference between the 2 apart from that, and from what I can glean, is that paypal will cost BE more to operate. eta: BE must be losing sales over this and imo they have got to make a calculation of revenue lost in sales using moneybookers against revenue lost by using paypal - maybe they already have though...
Cornflower Blue Member Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,329	Last edited by Cornflower Blue; Oct 23rd, 2009 at 03:43 PM.

Oct 23rd, 2009, 03:33 PM	#32
karmenzsofia Life is Plan Z Joined: Jun 2008 Location: Tarot Card Posts: 14,888	[QUOTE=lionlaw;12877920]Jenova, myself, and a couple of the other gals have been hit with this and contacted Jackie. The story on what MB wants changes depending on who you talk to. Jenova was asked for a wire transfer verification I think. They want double-layers from me, but yet another person was able to remove the blocks by just a phone call. It is this inconsistency in procedures that bothers me more than anything (although handing out my personal info to a German co I have never heard of doesn't rank high on the comfort scale either). Jackie has been in touch with them but she wasnt getting anywhere so I think she is taking it up to higher levels. BTW, I checked my bank statement and was charged a 3% fee from my bank for using my VISA check card because Moneybookers shows as a German company. Paypal would be cheaper.[/QUOTE] After I read your post, I checked my Visa account activity and saw the same 3% charge, which was totally unexpected. Not happy about it... I would not give out the kind of info MB is asking for under any circumstances. Giving my checking account number to PP was a HUGE deal for me, so I can't imagine giving out the private, personal info MB is requesting. This has been an interesting experience for me kuz this is the first time I buy anything outside the U.S. (except pet supplies that come from Canada). With the exception of MK bags, which I can see IRL and buy at the store, I never buy directly from designers. I usually buy my bags on eBay or Bonz at a significant discount, no MB or PP or bank fees, and low local shipping charges. I took the plunge this time kuz the BE sale was good and I really wanted this bag in that particular color/leather, but otherwise I would think twice given the complications.
	__________________ Satisfied but wishing 4 a WTM Mini and an AP ~~* Is it true? Is it helpful? Is it necessary? Is it kind? Or, more importantly, is it funny?

Oct 23rd, 2009, 04:29 PM	#33
lovebags2 Member Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,258	I"m not going to sign up for MB (to be honest I never even heard of this company until this morning) and I was clearly informed today I will not have Paypal as an option allowed going forward. Maybe Jackie will change this policy but.... Unless something changes it's no more BE's in my future. What can you do?
lovebags2 Member Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,258

Oct 23rd, 2009, 04:44 PM	#35
RaeBelle The Commish Joined: Jan 2008 Location: hockey-gasm Posts: 3,781	I had no problems signing up for MoneyBookers. I added my credit card and opted to have the letter sent to me to verify my address. I entered the 6 digit code on the letter into my MoneyBookers account and my limit is apparently 5000 euros. So far they've asked me for less information than PayPal or Google Checkout have.
	__________________ My Blog ~~ My Twitter The Commish's Blog and Twitter

Oct 23rd, 2009, 04:45 PM	#36
sgreg Member Joined: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 353	If I were to make an educated guess, I'd say both numbers are valid. 0.4% is probably the difference between the amount that Paypal and Moneybookers mark up the currency conversion exchange rate from the mid-market value. Paypal gives a poorer exchange rate, so BE would get less money for the same priced bag after converting the US dollars into pounds. 2% probably covers the fee that Paypal charges BE as the receiving merchant (for Moneybookers, the sender gets charged automatically instead of the merchant so this fee does not need to be accounted for).
sgreg Member Joined: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 353	__________________ I want: Cream pebbled TMA midi (ordered) Petrol matte Enchant me midi Red sheen rock me Dark purple glossy TMA original Anyone up for group bespokes?

Oct 23rd, 2009, 04:59 PM	#37
Pradameinhofgang Member Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 520	Hi, i thought i posted this ealier but now can't see it (Doh!). just for you ladies in UK my DH informes me that if you uase a 3rd party payment service such as moneybookers or paypal you are not covered by the Consumer Credit Act, and it is then up to either Paypal or Moneybookers etc to refund your money at their discretion if you have a problem; i'm sure that wouldn't be a problem with BE as Jackie would intervene in all cases anyway, but just to let you know it's not as straightforward as going to your c card company and getting a refund if you pay with a c card direct if goods are faulty or don't arrive...
Pradameinhofgang Member Joined: Jul 2006 Posts: 520	__________________ wishlist: - BE anything in python! - Hermes black Clemence Birkin - Hermes Collier de Chien bracelet - Hermes kabana tote

Oct 23rd, 2009, 05:29 PM	#38
BelenEchandia OP Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 448	Evening! I haven't got time to read this thread now - 11pm and I'm flagging - but I will do so tomorrow. Just to clarify a couple of things though I don't know if they are the questions asked here: 1. MB is our payment provider but BE is still required to adhere by all terms of Visa and MSC and the law. 2. MB is regulated by the FSA, so very secure. The first company to offer e-payments on the internet. 3. We did not intend that people have to sign up for a MB account and most people don't have to. For customers in the US (mostly), they are currently having issues verifiying addresses, for reasons I cannot understand. In order to verify they need a proof of address. They seem to have said "bank statement" to some customers but they don't need your bank details or financial status. They just need a postal statement to show you live there, it can be anything. 4. You pay with a credit card on our website. The only reasons to have a MB account are: 1. they can't verify your address (you still pay with a credit card on our website the same as before once you're verified) or 2. You have a high spend and then the Financial Services Authority says that they can't take more than a set limit per 90 days without an account. They didn't tell me this at the time and had I been aware of it we wouldn't have signed up for it, but it still doesn't compromise your security and you should not need to provide personal details - I don't know what GGA did exactly but perhaps she could share if she hasn't already. If someone has been charged extra then please email me to tell me why. The only time you would pay extra is with Amex - their fees are extortionate. MSC and Visa don't charge higher % at all. MB itself should not charge you and if they do I will take it up with them. Finally - I'm quite confused about some correspondence I have had today regarding payment methods, but I realised that perhaps people don't realise how our website works. We have to implement a payment solution for our website, integrating it with our system, all the functions etc. it is not just a case of putting Paypal on the website and off you go, it takes several weeks of developer time, at very expensive rates. After October 1st 2009 we chose MB because we know them, we trusted them, my business partner has worked with them and because they offer two important things to us: 1. The option to accept more cards, including Amex and Diners 2. The option to build our website so that we can take deposits and automatic final payment and so that you can FINALLY see accurate info in your BEC accounts and pay balances your self, thus eliminating all the workload in sending you links to pay. I should note that for this, you would need to have a MB account, obviously. We DO and CAN accept paypal as a last resort and this is because it is not integrated on our website, so....1. you cannot track orders, 2. you cannot use it to make BEC payments on site, 3. it is not integrated directly with our bank system on site, 4. we cannot match up orders in paypal/ the site for accounting reasons. Not to mention that they "steal" 0.5% on the exchange rate, thus charging underhand fees above and beyond what you pay and we pay. We do have it on our list to try to implement pp for the future, but we offered it before and it is not very good for merchants. In any case, it's more of an "ebay" solution than a professional website solution. We can use it and we will use it when we have exhausted options, but we do ask - and thanks a million to all of you who have - that you have a look at the MB site, send them a proof of address, get verified, it just takes a few days. I know some of you have found it a bit labour intensive, whilst others have found it much easier but once those few days are up then all should be easy and smooth. You will be able to do everything you can do now on our site and more. As for other sites - we've never had a third party payment provider before but almost all sites do. They use protx, or something similar. MB was supposed to undergo a system upgrade which would have meant that this whole process was simplified and limits lifted so accounts were not needed, but it has been delayed. Some of you know I have been fighting with them on your behalf for 2 weeks, not because I'm worried that they are anything but completely secure, that didn't even enter my mind as there is no way that the UK FSA would regulate a company that wasn't secure. They are strict. But because their processes are cumbersome and difficult to use. I have managed to secure a meeting with the CEO of the company on Tuesday next week and I can update you on whether they can see us as a special case and lift all the fraud stops (their system is basically too sensitive and thinks everyone is fraudulent rather than risk chargebacks (perhaps we can compare it to the banks not wanting to lend money during the credit crisis?)). If not then I will see what other options we have. Paypal will NOT be our main payments provider for the reasons I have stated. And if we have to implement a new system it will be very expensive - I prefer to invest in new products and leathers and wallets than in a new payment system which may not even be any better. But I will keep you posted. Also without reading this thread I don't really understand why people have become worried by the process of submitting a proof of address - irritated I understand, I am irritated myself, but I will look through this thread and directly answer any queries tomorrow. Jackie XOX
BelenEchandia OP Member Joined: Jan 2008 Posts: 448

Oct 23rd, 2009, 05:52 PM	#39
sgreg Member Joined: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 353	Thanks for the clarification :)
sgreg Member Joined: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 353	__________________ I want: Cream pebbled TMA midi (ordered) Petrol matte Enchant me midi Red sheen rock me Dark purple glossy TMA original Anyone up for group bespokes?

Oct 23rd, 2009, 06:37 PM	#40
Cornflower Blue Member Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,329	It's almost as if you're on the front line of a battle between business models... Speaking for myself, all I want is to be able to buy something without any extra hassle or hoops to go through (and I'm talking generally here). As for web development, the industry would regard this as 'money for old rope' on a professionally constructed site such as yours. With that time (and money, presumably) estimate that you've been given, I would honestly seek an independent second opinion about the whole thing. Anyway, thanks for coming on and explaining the situation and I truly hope that it works out well for BE and their customers in the end.
Cornflower Blue Member Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 4,329

Oct 23rd, 2009, 07:20 PM	#41
lovebags2 Member Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,258	After quite a lot of confusion today I"m happy to see we can still use Paypal.
lovebags2 Member Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,258

Oct 23rd, 2009, 08:57 PM	#42
morebags Member Joined: Oct 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 443	I may be unique here but when I made my payment through the BE site, it wasn't too onerous. I didn't have to wait for an email or a letter in the mail but I was directed directly to my bank through moneybookers and had to verify a whole heap of information. I'm in Australia though so maybe we work a little differently. I do have to say that I was a little hesitant to be giving bank type information over the internet, I have a special credit card with a fairly low limit to use for internet transactions just in case...

Oct 23rd, 2009, 10:54 PM	#43
lanasyogamama Member Joined: Oct 2007 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 1,544	Jackie, someone posted that: "When I googled MB vs Paypal I got "At Moneybookers, card transactions are charged a 1.9 per cent fee, which is quite high. Moneybookers charges its fees directly to the sender of the payment. This is not the case with Paypal that charges its fees to the recipient." It also states there is a 1% sending fee with MB, so that would add up to 2.9%, if the fees are accumulative." Is this true? Because these costs should be listed up front.
	__________________ I bespoke(d) it!: - Belen Echandia Hold Me Max in Orange with Purple lining

Oct 23rd, 2009, 11:02 PM	#44
sgreg Member Joined: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 353	Yeah, that was me. I also posted a link to the fee page on the moneybookers US site, which mentions the 1% and 1.9% fees. I would love for these to be my misinterpretation of their FAQ page :) Thanks for taking the time to alleviate our concerns.
sgreg Member Joined: Jun 2008 Location: USA Posts: 353	__________________ I want: Cream pebbled TMA midi (ordered) Petrol matte Enchant me midi Red sheen rock me Dark purple glossy TMA original Anyone up for group bespokes?

Oct 24th, 2009, 08:27 AM	#45
lovebags2 Member Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,258	I've been told that there is sensitive information you need to submit to MB re your banking etc... I"d love to know exactly what type of info is required since Jackie mentioned there is only a proof of address needed and can't understand all the fuss. In any event, I was told yesterday that IF I wanted to order another BEC in the future my only choice would be MB so for whatever reason I'm happy to see Paypal is still an available option should I decide to buy another BE.
lovebags2 Member Joined: Oct 2007 Posts: 4,258

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