[berta]

regarding inbreeding and what breeders are doing to our dogs.

[berta]

I just finished watching this program. They were talking about the effects of inbreeding, they talked a bit about the Cavalier Spaniel. These breeders could not see anything wrong with breeding mother to son, father to daughter and brother to sister. I am dumbfounded, did they sleep through their beginning biology classes?

The Cavaliers have a genetic condition where their scull too small for their brain and the program was showing the horrible and painful effects that it has on this breed. I believe they said that upto one third of all Cavaliers have this problem. The vet described it this way - the brain is like a size 10 foot being shoved into a size 7 shoe.

There was a Show winner that had sired something like 26 litters since the owner found out that her Cavalier had this genetic defect. 26 litters, that's like 182 puppies that could possibly be carrying this defect and that is just the litters after the owner found out. there were tons before she knew.

The show also pointed out the changes in the German Shepard and the problems with their hind legs. Problems with the Boxers, Labs, and short nosed dogs.

It was so frustrating to see these breeders not carrying that they were breeding needless painful lives for these dogs.

I knew that Boston Terriers need assistance to breed, but didn't know there were other breeds and why they can't.

All too painful to see these dogs and all too frusterating to see the ignorance of these irresponsible people.

All I could do is hug my babies and cry.

[Lakritze]

It is horrible to see what can happen to a perfectly healthy breed in a short period of time. It's all done to meet some crazy criteria in some crazy breed standards.

I can't understand how they accept dogs in a breeding program without proper medical and genetic testing. It's easy to do and it should be in the breeders interest to breed healthy dogs.

There is a reason why some dogs can't mate or give birth without assistance. That's how nature tries to solve the problem.

[Sharkbait]

I have one of the dogs discussed in this show - a Rhodesian Ridgeback - and was disgusted at how one-sided, biased and misinformed they were.

It's sad that people will watch this show and believe it all. Because a significant portion was just plain wrong.

[Lakritze]

I'm sure some people never question anything said in the show but it is a fact that many breeds have not changed for the best.

Do you mean the Dermoid Sinus that is very common in ridge dogs? That IS a common thing.

[berta]

Sharkbait, I am really interested in your view point. The show mentioned that they culled Rhodesian Ridgebacks if the ridge was not prominent.

Now this was the BBC, I do know that many years ago a pedigreed puppy that was under par was euthanized and was surprised that the UK continues this practice.

Seriously, what has your experience been like?

[BomberGal]

Please keep in mind this show focused on the British Kennel Club and British breeders.

There are issues with bad breeding in the states too... HOWEVER, many American show & sport breeders are much more aware of hereditary concerns and take health testing seriously. There are many preliminary health tests breeders can and should do prior to breeding. Testing can get expensive, but its worth it.

Unfortunately, many people would prefer paying BYBs pure profit of $200+ per pup rather than re-imbursing a responsible breeder mostly costs incurred at $1,000+ per pup. Those inexpensive pups with little to no research or information available with their pedigree and no testing then go on to breed themselves and pass on hereditary issues unhindered... Even if the breedings result in mixes or mutts. Its an unfounded myth that mutts are generally healthier than pedigree dogs. Mutt pups are just as likely to inherit genetic illnesses from their parents as a purebred pup. Especially if say, both parents are breeds prone to a wide variety of hereditary problems. Such as a GSD mix or Dobe mix or a mutt with GSD or Dobe somewhere in their lines.

Where as a pedigreed dog from a responsible breeder can have their lines documented, hereditary diseases in the lines recorded, individuals tested and bred toward eliminating or significantly reducing the spread of various conditions.

[Sharkbait]

Originally Posted by berta

Sharkbait, I am really interested in your view point. The show mentioned that they culled Rhodesian Ridgebacks if the ridge was not prominent. Now this was the BBC, I do know that many years ago a pedigreed puppy that was under par was euthanized and was surprised that the UK continues this practice. Seriously, what has your experience been like?

This is going to be long!! But, I'm happy to share! I can only speak to the Ridgeback portion, though, and the overall dog show world I've experienced.
For full discloser, I'm very active in my breed, and our dog does participate in conformation, or "dog shows" and various sports.

1-Ridgeless puppies are killed. My experience with breed has been that ridgeless dogs are not killed, but immediately neutered and sold as pet dogs. But, they didn't put the breeders that say THAT in the show. I've never known or heard of any breeder to kill a pup. That said, couple things: Ridgeless Ridgebacks are, by definition, not Ridgebacks. So, that's a fundamental problem. They are not wanted and as a result, they look like hound-pitbull mixes and are picked up by rescues as such. From there, they are often put to sleep as potentially dangerous dogs, or end up as bait dogs in dog fighting rings.

That said, it does happen, apparently. (Not common in the US and less than 1% worldwide). As one breeder puts it:

Quote:

The fate of a ridgeless dog is far less than certain if the first and original owner does not act responsibly, and every breeder knows that you can’t always trust owners to act responsibly. So, as a breeder, if you know that a certain percentage of your ridgeless puppies are going to end up living horrible lives of pain and confusion and loneliness and then be put to death, even if it’s only one percent, you have a decision to make. You can send them out there, trying hard not to think about that one percent, or you can make sure that their lives are short and painless and they never know fear or hunger or fighting. It is an individual decision that no breeder makes lightly. We LOVE our puppies. We ADORE our dogs. Every single time we lose one it is a personal tragedy. So while I may have certain convictions about what I would do, I have a great deal of sympathy for those who make a decision that is different

2-The show said the Ridge on the Ridgeback is a form of spina bifida and genetic fault from inbreeding. THIS IS AN OUTRIGHT LIE. It's hair, that's all. It's a long cowlick. So, the show calling that in and of itself a genetic fault is just lying.

3-The BBC documentary said that Dermoid Sinus (a genetic fault in Ridgebacks) was only found in ridged dogs, but the breeders continue to breed ridged dogs, therefore spreading this genetic defect. Not true at all. Dermoid Sinus is in NO WAY RELATED to the ridge, and ridgeless Rhodesians are just as likely to get this. Also, responsible breeders are actively fighting dermoid sinus (which can be easily removed by the way) by not breeding dogs with it.

So, just on those three things alone, I seriously question the credibility of the show. They flat out LIED on the things related to my dog, so who knows what else was fabricated to make "their point?" I resent them calling my dog a "mutant" when he can absolutely perform the job for which he was bred and designed to do.

__________________________________________________ ___________

Also, the idea of dog shows is not a beauty pageant. It is to evaluate the dogs based on their function. If you're at a dog show, no one is talking about how pretty the dogs are, but are looking at things like structure, reach and drive, etc. For example, in Ridgebacks -- which were bred to hunt lions, dogs too long in the loin couldn't corner well, and were poor hunters as a result. So the breeders today breed dogs that are ideally suited for what they were originally meant to do -- and most test this theory by participating in performance sports.

My belief is Pedigree indicates what the animal should be…conformation indicates what the animal appears to be…performance indicates what the animal actually is…….

To some other points from that show....such as how the dogs have changed over time. Well, yeah, so have people. Our average height has grown, too, over the course of 200 years. But aside from that, there were some more fundamentals half-truths in that.

The pictures the documentary uses to supposedly “expose” the changes in purebred dogs are totally false. You cannot make statements about a dog based on a photo of a POOR EXAMPLE of the breed! I can go find you a poorly bred long-legged Basset right now in 2008; doesn’t mean that the breed has changed. Also, the bulldog they say is the historic one absolutely isn’t. It's a pit bull dog, not the bull-baiting dog. The skull they used to illustrate the Bulldog skull changes was a grossly malformed one -- not that of a normal moderate Bulldog. Using extremes to validate their points is unethical to me. And they did that repeatedly.

NOW, that all said:

Are there irresponsible breeders out there? Hell yes. And anyone who has bought a dog from a pet store, newspaper clipping, friend, from a sign or someone with a litter in a box in front of WalMart is guilty to contributing to that. And, here's the kicker: If you are buying a pure bred dog and not researching your breeder and/or talking to your national breed club first, you are contributing to the problem.

People need to research their breeder just as much--if not more than their breed. This is the way to get rid of crappy breeders and backyard breeders. And unfortunately, people don't do that.

Responsible breeders make NO MONEY from breeding. In fact, breeding healthy, quality dogs is a money-losing venture for most. Finding and evaluating good homes takes time and energy (for example, I had to take a 6 page questionnaire and undergo interviews before my breeder would give me a puppy.) Food, vet bills, health testing, traveling to shows, performance events, obedience classes, etc all costs money. The show made it seem like breeders just want ribbons and accolades, and the reality it, it's not true.

PHEW, I think I'm done!!!

Did I find parts of this show disturbing? Yes. Do I think part were true? Absolutely? Was this a fair and accurate representation of the world of pure bred dogs and conformation events? HELL NO.

[Sharkbait]

Originally Posted by BomberGal

Its an unfounded myth that mutts are generally healthier than pedigree dogs. Mutt pups are just as likely to inherit genetic illnesses from their parents as a purebred pup. Especially if say, both parents are breeds prone to a wide variety of hereditary problems. Such as a GSD mix or Dobe mix or a mutt with GSD or Dobe somewhere in their lines. Where as a pedigreed dog from a responsible breeder can have their lines documented, hereditary diseases in the lines recorded, individuals tested and bred toward eliminating or significantly reducing the spread of various conditions.

THUMBS UP!

If my mutt gets Cancer, vets says "oh, that's a shame." If a Golden Retriever gets Cancer, it's "because it's common in the breed." It's so much about perception. Just like the Boxer with epilepsy they found. Boxer mixes are so common where I live and they are just as likely to have the genes for epilepsy as the pure bred.

[Lakritze]

It makes me sad that people don't WANT to see the problems some breeds have. I'm not talking about you and your Ridgeback. There are a lot of very responsible breeders around the world but it's the few bad ones that cause problems.

It was a show about the breeds in the UK and the breeders shown were from the UK, too. It's great that it is different in the US, but it seems to be a problem in the UK.

It might be easy in theory to get rid of Dermoid Sinus for example but that requires dedicated breeders and proper recording. In reality it is not that easy and if it was there wouldn't be Canine Ceroid Lipofuszinose in American Bulldogs (and a few other breeds) anymore.

Crufts DID look like a beauty contest to me. The German Shepherds shown were not able to work anywere. It was so sad to see these poor crippled dogs.

The RR overall definitely IS very healthy breed but some countries seem to not want to see the problems that exist.

It should be required for every breed to get any necessary testing done before a dog can be shown or used for breeding. There will always be backyard breeders but it is step in the right direction.

Ridgeback breeders here in Germany DO consider Dermoid Sinus a breed specific disease, even though there are a few other breeds with that problem, too. It is very common among Ridgebacks as is epilepsy in Boxers. It doesn't mean that every dog has it or that only these breeds suffer from it.

There are many breeders that try to breed healthier Pugs, Persians, English Bulldogs etc. but they are not recognized by the Kennel Clubs because the animals don't fit the breeding standard (but are much healthier than the ones that do). Todays English Bulldog could not do what it was bred for a long time ago (not that it bull baiting was a good thing *shudder*) so things don't always change for the best.

[Sharkbait]

My problem with the show was they just stated complete wrong information as fact. What sort of journalism is that?

[Brooke11]

Is this the one you're talking about?
http://www.pawnation.com/2009/12/11/...air-stateside/

I agree, it is awful. That's why I rescue mixed breeds. My mom has two purebreds that both have health issues and two rescued purebred cats with serious health issues (from birth). None of her other pets have any issues.

[berta]

Yes that is the program I was watching. Thank you for the link.

[BomberGal]

I think a responsible breeder has to breed for the full package.

To me, its a huge fallacy to say that "Function Follows Form". Which is something many conformation breeders hold to. Their dogs may fit the standard and are conformationally sound. But that alone doesn't mean they can perform. Various drives and temperment considerations need to be made. Working ability needs to be proven, not assumed.

Likewise, a breeder may produce healthy dogs... But breeding out of standard can ruin the breed just as well and lead to other problems. Dogs bred out of standard can fall apart physically from working or even just play. So while X-Doberman is free of Cardio problems and may have the drive to work, their out of standard conformation may not be able to hold up to it and can cause their otherwise healthy status and quality of life to deteriorate (a common issue in otherwise healthy over-sized dogs).

And a dog who is bred to work hard, may not be stable enough or healthy enough to do so long term. If breeding just for the drives needed, the dog has the potential of falling apart early on in life (like with the above mentioned dogs) or dropping dead (such as from cardio problems. This is mentioned with Dobermans fairly often.)

If a breeder is truely breeding to better the breed and preserve it... They will be considering all factors. Conformation, to work toward a structurally sound specimen. Drives and temperment, to ensure the dog can perform and function as intended. And health, to ensure the quality of life and longevity of the dog and its potential offspring.

This, however, is an extremely expensive and time consuming endeavor. And most breeders only dedicate themselves to one or two of the three in any given breed.


(and yeah, I'm very familiar with the fact that mixes and mutts are just as prone to health issues. If not more so, given that they generally come from poorly bred specimens of their purebred relatives. My last dog was a GSD x Doberman mix. She had many hereditary health issues. Food allergies (common to GSD) and died of SIBO, another hereditary issue common to GSD.

People like to quote Hybrid vigor, but its not applicable to dog mixes. It refers to inter-species, not inter-breed. All dog breeds are the same species and the offspring of two different breeds or mutts of unknown pedigree are equally as prone to the hereditary conditions of their lines as a purebred.
FAR MORE SO than a purebred produced from a carefully selected and health tested parents with known pedigree.)

[chessmont]

Originally Posted by sharkbait

i have one of the dogs discussed in this show - a rhodesian ridgeback - and was disgusted at how one-sided, biased and misinformed they were. It's sad that people will watch this show and believe it all. Because a significant portion was just plain wrong.

-ita!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sharkbait said it all well, no need for duplication

Bombergal, also a good post